Back in "the day", there was no such thing as asking someone to sign a waiver. MOTL rules state, and for good reason, that it is the senders responsibility to make sure that the cards arrive. At some point, and I'm not sure when, some smartass must have decided that they'd only do deals if other members were stupid enough to go along with signing a waiver, relieving them of their responsibility of making sure the cards arrive. People must have wanted the cards so badly that they said, "sure, ok!" so others started doing it. Now it's rampant.

It's so rampant, in fact, that more than one member has recently asked me to sign a waiver on cards that are under $50. I have 203 references and have been on the site for over 12 years. These deals are on buys, so they would be getting the money first via Paypal. But that's apparently not good enough. See, they want me to sign a waiver because they think I'm going to rip them or something?

One word.

Dumb.

These people, if we were trading, would never ask for a waiver. They'd be fine with a simulsend. But when buying, now a waiver is needed? Huh? It makes zero sense. They're simply making an unreasonable request because, frankly, they're selfish (and apparently have a lot to learn about sales).

So what I encourage people with high ref counts (certainly over 100) to do is to refuse to sign waivers. Nobody with 100 references on this site should ever have to sign a waiver. You have proven many times that your word is good and that's worth something.

Overall I think it's just easier to make people who don't want to pay for tracking wave responsibility if you're trying to sell. There are some clever ways I've seen people try to get around this and still con me but it really reduces it quite a bit from what I can tell. I've had some "reputable" members of this site force me to send first in trades while also making me wave responsibility and the cards involved in the trade changed value significantly during transit and my package allegedly never arrived.

I'd personally like see people get rated badly if they have a history of not receiving PWEs/their PWEs not arriving or they have a history of pulling other tricks such as "you forgot to put a card into the package, please send another". At least then people could go into deals knowing they might get ripped so they'll invest in tracking.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ryanghall:
And if someone has like 4 references, I can totally understand it and even encourage it. But the sellers need to use some common sense.

And yes, I'm starting to see the old "Oh, I didn't get all of the cards" lately and it's a disturbing trend. Never seen it from a 100+ ref member, though.

---

So you're arguing for principle alone then? I guess you must have forgotten about this bull****.

Good luck with your crusade. I mean that.

__________________
"Message to women worldwide: Girls....we're stupid. We don't like games. We don't know games. We can't read minds. Say it like you mean or STFU." -rockondon

quote:

---

Originally posted by chaos021:
So you're arguing for principle alone then? I guess you must have forgotten about this bull****.

Good luck with your crusade. I mean that.

---

And sending a waiver allows YOU to do that.

Also, congrats on picking one case out of thousands (perhaps tens of thousands?) of packages sent to members with over 100 refs. Guessing you don't know a lot about variance and odds?

quote:

---

Originally posted by ryanghall:
Stuff

---

Did you pay for trackable shipping from US to Canada? If you didn't, then people will ask you to sign a waiver.

My word of advise: Pay for registered shipping and you won't have to deal with these things.

__________________
(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

quote:

---

Originally posted by junichi:
Did you pay for trackable shipping from US to Canada? If you didn't, then people will ask you to sign a waiver.

My word of advise: Pay for registered shipping and you won't have to deal with these things.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ryanghall:
And sending a waiver allows YOU to do that.

Also, congrats on picking one case out of thousands (perhaps tens of thousands?) of packages sent to members with over 100 refs. Guessing you don't know a lot about variance and odds?

---

That BTA is THE reason all this crap that you're talking about started. If you can't get that, I'm not sure why you're still on this site.

__________________
"Message to women worldwide: Girls....we're stupid. We don't like games. We don't know games. We can't read minds. Say it like you mean or STFU." -rockondon

quote:

---

Originally posted by ryanghall:
Paying, what, $15 for international trackable shipping on a $50 card? I'm not sure if you're joking or not. In case you're not, no, I won't be doing that.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ryanghall:
Paying, what, $15 for international trackable shipping on a $50 card? I'm not sure if you're joking or not. In case you're not, no, I won't be doing that.

---

Then please don't complain about having to sign a waiver if you are unwilling to pay for proper shipping. There is no reason the seller should take on the risk when the buyer is too cheap to pay for tracking.

__________________
(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

quote:

---

Originally posted by junichi:
There is no reason the seller should take on the risk when the buyer is too cheap to pay for tracking.

---

The mail for the most part in the US/Canada is great but things do get lost so if you can't take a loss on something pay for tracking. I don't for the most part sell things on MOTL unless i'm going to eat the loss or have tracking included in the price of what i'm selling.

quote:

---

Originally posted by chaos021:
That BTA is THE reason all this crap that you're talking about started. If you can't get that, I'm not sure why you're still on this site.

---

That case isn't the reason this all started. People have been asking for waivers for years. There was one person who originally started it but can't remember his name ATM.

The fact is is that if people are stupid enough to not pay for tracking, then they are accepting a risk. When selling on eBay, personally anything I sell less than $8 gets shipped pwe. Anything from there to $15 goes pwe nonmachinable. Everything above that gets tracking. On eBay I take a calculated risk with the untracked stuff. With thousands of sales I've lost maybe 3. Those get automatically refunded.

So you can continue throwing that case back up in my face but the truth is that the rules now are more stable than they were prior to that case. The higher end sales have a more stable criteria than "back in the day". The mid range sales still have DC/tracking to protect. The low end have the "waiver" to cover them. If people don't use them then that's their own fault.

quote:

---

Originally posted by junichi:
Then please don't complain about having to sign a waiver if you are unwilling to pay for proper shipping. There is no reason the seller should take on the risk when the buyer is too cheap to pay for tracking.

---

Others, I guess I don't understand two things:

1) If you won't take that hit as a seller, why will you as a trader?

2) If the responsibility of risk is supposed to be on the part of the receiver, then why do MOTL rules state that it is the sender's responsibility to get the cards there?

quote:

---

Originally posted by ryanghall:
First of all, junichi, too cheap? I'm sorry but I don't know what to tell you if you pay $15 tracking on $50 cards.

Others, I guess I don't understand two things:

1) If you won't take that hit as a seller, why will you as a trader?

2) If the responsibility of risk is supposed to be on the part of the receiver, then why do MOTL rules state that it is the sender's responsibility to get the cards there?

It's pretty obvious why. The people in this thread have made condescending comments but have skirted around the main points I came up with.

---

You are being cheap. How can you reasonably expect a seller to take a risk sending something without tracking to someone you don't know? I understand the 100+ refs thing, but even if its just lost in the mail the seller has absolutely zero ability to even see if it was delivered. Its the sellers responsibility to get the cards there, if you want to pay for proper shipping.

You mention trades, if you don't do tracking on $50 trade, you better trust the other guy and be sure hes not going to just decide to say it never showed.

You should only be buying from people from within Canada then, so you can save on shipping. And even then I bet people from inside Canada won't send $50 in cards without tracking, or a waiver.

The rules state it is the sellers responsibility yes, but you are undermining the sellers ability to protect themselves.

I've sold a lot on here, not as much as some, but a waiver was pretty standard on my sales even back in 2005 if people didn't want to pay for the proper shipping.

Sounds like you should just be buying off ebay, where the buyers protected, just so you don't have to worry about not paying for proper shipping costs and while still not bearing any responsibility for those actions.

When trading, people have no issue sending first and don't ask for the waiver.

Personally I would estimate that 150 of my transactions on here were trades with both parties using pwe. Of those a total of 2 envelopes were lost out of a possible 300 (one going each way). Less than 1% lost/damaged. The odds are very low of something happening. If I am purchasing something from a reputable member I feel ok with waiving liability since I feel there is a <1% chance of something going wrong. If it is a larger purchase I will pay for tracking or look to buy it locally when my LGS has a sale.

quote:

---

Originally posted by totalkaoz:
I agree with ryanghall here and I would NEVER waive responsibility. I would go as far to ask members under 100 refs to send me cards first and then pay for them afterwards. People used to be willing to do this with no issue but nowadays, it seems like even members with under 10 refs want you to pay paypal gift and ask to waive responsibility.

When trading, people have no issue sending first and don't ask for the waiver.

Isn't selling just a trade but with cash instead of cards?

---

You two are a big part of why I quit selling on here. I'd rather sell my cards for more on Ebay and not have to deal with this BS. You pay proper shipping or you don't get the cards. There is none of this, I want international shipping for 1.00 even though it costs you 6-7. I want you to break the law by lying about the value so I don't have to pay import fees. I don't want to pay for tracking or insurance. I want everything my way. To the person above who talked about Ebay, I'd suggest you check out their Global Shipping Program. It is not cheap and you don't have to deal with cheap people.

I've learned from experience that you won't get any sympathy here, full stop. Rather you'll get a bunch of condescending answers about how you totally should spend $15 to mail $50 of cards. Because you're a greedy greedster if you don't want to accept risk.

quote:

---

You two are a big part of why I quit selling on here. I'd rather sell my cards for more on Ebay and not have to deal with this BS. You pay proper shipping or you don't get the cards. There is none of this, I want international shipping for 1.00 even though it costs you 6-7. I want you to break the law by lying about the value so I don't have to pay import fees. I don't want to pay for tracking or insurance. I want everything my way. To the person above who talked about Ebay, I'd suggest you check out their Global Shipping Program. It is not cheap and you don't have to deal with cheap people.

To your last question, absolutely not the same thing. Selling, you are taking less for your cards. Trading, you are getting something back you would have to pay cash for otherwise. Also, if the deal isn't worth the shipping, you pass.

---

What's your definition of "more"? Ebay you pay the fees and such so I have doubts to your claim since you seem to be on some kind of agenda to prove this point.

The Global Shipping Program is the biggest travesty to ever come on eBay. Pretty much you pay them huge fees so that they can ship it for you because you are too lazy to figure out how. On top of that, this program makes it ridiculously high to send anywhere outside of the States and these sellers "tend" to get less for cards.

quote:

---

Originally posted by yodadoc1234:
Why don't people just send their packages the mail with DC and insurance? It costs a little ,but it saves all this hassle people seem to be experiencing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by yodadoc1234:
Why don't people just send their packages the mail with DC and insurance? It costs a little ,but it saves all this hassle people seem to be experiencing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ryanghall:
First of all, junichi, too cheap? I'm sorry but I don't know what to tell you if you pay $15 tracking on $50 cards.

Others, I guess I don't understand two things:

1) If you won't take that hit as a seller, why will you as a trader?

2) If the responsibility of risk is supposed to be on the part of the receiver, then why do MOTL rules state that it is the sender's responsibility to get the cards there?

It's pretty obvious why. The people in this thread have made condescending comments but have skirted around the main points I came up with.

---

Why do sellers have to take the hit? They can just sell it to others who are willing to pay for proper shipping, such as buyers who are within US. If paying $15 shipping for a $50 purchase is too much, then either buy more at once, or go buy from a Canadian supplier where tracking is $7.

Complaining about someone unwilling to take on the risk and send you cards internationally using PWE is just plain stupid.

__________________
(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻