In limited, he's a bomb and a half. Incredibly annoying to deal with, and typically a game winner.

In constructed, we're yet to see him make any real impact.

My question is, what would it take for him to be a 'thing'? Would it take something that they're not going to print or is he just a rat or two away? Or is it not a rat that he needs, at all? Perhaps a card that allows him to interact with the yard better off of his discard ability?

I speculated the **** out of this guy because it cost relatively nothing to do it (I picked up like 30 non foil and 12 foil for $20+ for the hell of it) but am not so sure, with the recent guild abilities he has a chance to make it as a constructed card that see's tournament level play and success.

in limited you don't have access to any are you want. IN standard supreme verdict, terminus, d sphere, bonfire and likely others I'm forgetting can all keep him in check. Beyond that we have decent spot removal such as pillar of flame and searing spear.

There are some interesting builds floating around and discussions, as well that note a few ideas:

Lingering Souls
Think Twice
Veilborn Ghoul (?!)
Sever the Bloodline

And of course, Snapcaster Mage in the background of all of this.

Something like this:

3x Snapcaster Mage
4x Pack Rat
4x Typhoid Rat
4x Ravenous Rats

4x Think Twice
4x Azorious Charm
4x Lingering Souls
2x Sign in Blood
3x Essence Scatter
3x Rootborn Defenses

2x Liliana of the Veil

3x Godless Shrine
3x Watery Grave
4x Isolated Chapel
3x Hallowed Fountain
4x Drowned Catacombs
2x Glacial Fortress
1x Island
2x Swamp
1x Plains
2x Vault of the Archangel

quote:

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Originally posted by Demilio:
Detention Sphere,Sever the Bloodline, Supreme Verdict are cards that see a lot of play in standard. I don't see the rat ever being T2 playable. The mana cost and card disadvantage you are paying are just too easy to be wiped away.

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Terminus too.

quote:

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Originally posted by dwiz:
Pack Rats is awful outside of limited. You've speculated in a bulk rare.

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ESPECIALLY TERMINUS. I mean, really? It doesn't target, and it doesn't destroy. If you don't counter it, its going to clear your field, leaving you with a 3/3 token thanks to Thragtusk if you're lucky. Name a standard staple, and there's removal responses for it. They'd be broken if there weren't. If you're going to say Pack Rat is bad, why don't you try being at least a little more creative than, "dumb card cuz gets removed by removal lulz."

Now, for my two cents. I have a friend who consistently beats out B/R Zombies, American Midrange, Jund Midrange, and its a toss-up with Bant Control (4 out the 5 top deck types according to TCG, all of which have decklists copied from 1st placers in SCG tourneys, GPs, Invitationals, etc etc) with a deck using 2 or 3 Pack Rats. I don't have a decklist, but its some sort of GWB populate monstrosity, using Trostani, Wayfaring Temple, Parallel Lives, Growing Ranks, Sigarda (for evasion), and the like. He uses things like Selesnya Charm, Oblivion Ring, Abrupt Decay, Sever the Bloodline etc. to hold off his opponent while he does his thing with Druid's Deliverance and Rootborn Defenses. Pack Rat isn't essential for victory, but its a winner more than often to secure his place in the deck. Selesnya Midrange is the deck out the top 5 I listed that's generally too fast for him. B/R Zombies also puts up a pretty good fight and its a cool match to watch, but he beats most of those decks in the end. What I think is cool is that he generally only discards once or twice for Pack Rats since the copies are tokens, the deck just powers him up. I'll see if I can get a decklist. I just want it to be known that just because its a bulk rare doesn't *necessarily* mean it can't be powerful in standard, although they usually aren't. For example, didn't matter what Tempered Steel, Solarflare, or any of the other top decks of the Scars-earlyInnistrad time did, my Worldslayer deck was unstoppable. *evil laugh*

For example, Demilio mentioned that the mana costs and card disadvantage were too high. That's definitely more of a constructive criticism than repeating something we all know: Removal spells remove things.

quote:

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Originally posted by fedorables:
I'm not saying removal isn't relevant. It definitely is. And I stated that. My issue with mentioning it is that most people are giving out lists of removal spells. Try naming a creature in standard that can't be responded to by Detention Sphere, Sever the Bloodline, Supreme Verdict, or Terminus... and I mean the creature itself, ignoring its leave play effects. I bet you can't.

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SO MANY OF THE TIER ONE CREATURES MEET THE CRITERIA

Haste: Hellrider, Falkenrath Aristocrat, Thundermaw Hellkite

Flash: Restoration Angel

Value: Thragtusk (can't negate the "leaves play" clause no matter what you say)

quote:

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Originally posted by fedorables:
Now, for my two cents. I have a friend who consistently beats out B/R Zombies, American Midrange, Jund Midrange, and its a toss-up with Bant Control (4 out the 5 top deck types according to TCG, all of which have decklists copied from 1st placers in SCG tourneys, GPs, Invitationals, etc etc) with a deck using 2 or 3 Pack Rats. I don't have a decklist, but its some sort of GWB populate monstrosity, using Trostani, Wayfaring Temple, Parallel Lives, Growing Ranks, Sigarda (for evasion), and the like. He uses things like Selesnya Charm, Oblivion Ring, Abrupt Decay, Sever the Bloodline etc. to hold off his opponent while he does his thing with Druid's Deliverance and Rootborn Defenses.

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I feel you're being results oriented with inbred results.. I've destroyed b/w tokens in Lorwyn standard with Fae, which shouldnt happen.. my opp told me after the match, they dont have a good fae player in their group.. and I sense that's the case here. you listed a few fairly upper tier decks, yes, but at the same time, you need a very competent pilot behind those decks for them to operate at peak efficiency..

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