Feel free to post your thoughts and opinions. Please behave maturely, personal attacks and unruly behavior will not be tolerated.

Remember, the parties involved in the case are NOT to reveal themselves!

On to the first case!

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Datatog and MOTLBot have a trade in progress. MOTLBot sent first. During negotiations, MOTLBot described the card in question as "HP" and Datatog was fine with the condition and offered a trade up accordingly. MOTLBot also included a few links to pictures of the card in question. Datatog did not ask for pictures and did not to look at the pictures, as condition was already discussed and Datatog felt that was enough.

However, when the card arrived, Datatog found that it was not an English card. Nowhere in the negotiations was the card stated to be a language other than English. Datatog immediately contacted MOTLBot about the discrepancy, saying the trade was not for a non-English card, and asking that MOTLBot cover return shipping . MOTLBot's response was that pictures were sent of the card, showing it to be another language.
___________________________________________________________

The rule that you need to consider for this case is:

If language isn't discussed, cards are expected to be English.

YOU be the judge!

Thanks,
Jazaray

__________________
A Plastered Dragon Original Limerick:
There was a nice lassie named Jaz
Many wished to have what she has,
A delicate face,
A soft warm embrace,
And a whole lot of bedroom pizzazz.

WeedIan: Jazaray is like MOTL's Mom.

1. Does MOTLBot live in a country whose native language is English and if no was the card sent in MOTLBot's native language?

I mean you were sent a picture and chose not to look at it.

That said we are to assume all cards are English on this site unless explicitly noted, which the trader who sent the card failed to do.

TL/DR Letter of the Law - Trader who sent the non-English card bears complete responsibility. But I would at least split it if I was the trader who received the picture and chose not to look at it.

quote:

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Originally posted by pugowar:
TL/DR Letter of the Law - Trader who sent the non-English card bears complete responsibility. But I would at least split it if I was the trader who received the picture and chose not to look at it.

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...in response to the objection from the peanut gallery,

I feel like you have the responsibility to let the other guy know you have an Italian card before you start negotiating.

Now, if the dude said hey I got this HP Confidant, here's a picture of it, do you want it? Well that's the other guy's problem if he didn't view it. How hard is it to click a photo and view it? I still think you should probably be explicit and say it's not English, but still.

quote:

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Originally posted by hilikuS:
At what point in the process were the photos sent? To me it seems like if the negotiating was done before the pictures were sent, then the dude who had the foreign card should have to fix the problem. Like, you say you've got a foreign card and you negotiate accordingly from there. It shouldn't work like, hey lets trade for this HP Dark Confidant, ok things are settled, oh BTW it's Italian.

I feel like you have the responsibility to let the other guy know you have an Italian card before you start negotiating.

Now, if the dude said hey I got this HP Confidant, here's a picture of it, do you want it? Well that's the other guy's problem if he didn't view it. How hard is it to click a photo and view it? I still think you should probably be explicit and say it's not English, but still.

I also have a sidebar here Jaz. Is it at all possible to create a Rules Forum? Like, that houses the rules, and all their updates. I know we've had rulings about stuff, and it was a big deal, but was never like updated on the site. I think it would be super solid to have an actual Rules forum that can be viewed by all, and can be updated by Mods as things come up. I still don't think the Delivery Confirmation stuff is up on the site in some place that isn't that really long thread full of heated discussion.

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Each forum rules section has the relevant rules posted and kept updated already. Having them in another location probably wouldn't be a bad idea, but finding a place where they won't be lost in the shuffle may be tricky.

__________________
There's no need to fear, UNDERDOG is here!

All your Gruul Nodorogs are belong to me. Trade them to me, please!

Report rules violations.

quote:

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Originally posted by nderdog:
Each forum rules section has the relevant rules posted and kept updated already. Having them in another location probably wouldn't be a bad idea, but finding a place where they won't be lost in the shuffle may be tricky.

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Was the pic a hyperlink? If not, how can you be sure the recipient wasn't operating from a non-computer device, thus making it difficult to see the image?

I say again, why open it if the condition was already discussed? No reason to...Datatog shouldn't be held accountable for anything. Split shipping for not opening a picture that wasn't necessary, no way!

Look at the policy :all cards assumed english unless STATED. Nothing was stated, only an image sent to show condition....condition isn't the issue it sounds like, only the language, so the context in which the pic was sent is not even a legitimate argument.

Pretty clean, cut and dry...

quote:

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Originally posted by Balian Baron of Ibelan:
...but in arguing for the recipient, why open the image if the condition was already stated? Wasted step, wasted time...

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Even if condition is predetermined, why wouldn't you still check it? HP is a pretty broad term, so wouldn't you want to see exactly what you were getting? It certainly should have been stated it wasn't English, but at the same time, caveat emptor.

There is NO/0/zero need to open the picture as it sounds like the recipient must have been okay with the card condition to not open the pic. The condition of the card was accepted. That's it! No need for a pic.

This is all trivial. It doesn't matter if the pic was opened or not. Card condition was determined, values where put onto the cards and a shipping order must have been selected. The language should've been stated when determining the value of said cards...

...which brings up another point. Value. Are all language copies valued the same as English? No. So when the non-English card was given a dollar amount, was the recipient of the card aware of the language? Doesn't sound like it...

quote:

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Originally posted by Iluvhyppies:
Couple of questions:

1. Does MOTLBot live in a country whose native language is English and if no was the card sent in MOTLBot's native language?

2. In a country where English is not the native language how readily available are packs of english cards?

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1. MOTLBot lives in a different country, however the native language of that country is not the language the card is in.

2. Honestly... I have no idea.

quote:

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Originally posted by paragondave:
How much is the card worth, even well loved?

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An English NM one is worth between $20-30. I'm afraid I don't know how much one in the language that was sent is worth.

quote:

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Originally posted by hilikuS:
At what point in the process were the photos sent?

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The pictures were sent at the beginning of the trade process. Datatog posted a "CML for xxx" on MOTLBot's thread, MOTLBot replied with an offer, as well as the pictures.

quote:

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Originally posted by Balian Baron of Ibelan:
Was the pic a hyperlink? !

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The pictures (there were multiple) were not hyperlinks.

Thanks,
Jazaray

__________________
A Plastered Dragon Original Limerick:
There was a nice lassie named Jaz
Many wished to have what she has,
A delicate face,
A soft warm embrace,
And a whole lot of bedroom pizzazz.

WeedIan: Jazaray is like MOTL's Mom.

quote:

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Originally posted by Jazaray:
1. MOTLBot lives in a different country, however the native language of that country is not the language the card is in.

2. Honestly... I have no idea.

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Well that makes the case a little more complicated than I expected. However, as had been pointed out, the receiver didn't bother looking at the pictures that were sent. So that puts the bulk of the blame on him as far as I concerned, because he was given a golden opportunity to discover the language of the card well before the deal was finalized.

On the other hand, if I were offering I would have been sure to note that the card was not in English at least once (probably every time) I mentioned it in any correspondence. But then I tend to bit a bit anal about things like that. Or I was when I was actively trading on here.

quote:

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Originally posted by Jazaray:
The pictures were sent at the beginning of the trade process. Datatog posted a "CML for xxx" on MOTLBot's thread, MOTLBot replied with an offer, as well as the pictures.

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Was the card listed as foreign in MOTLBot's thread?

quote:

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Originally posted by Leeroy:
Was the card listed as foreign in MOTLBot's thread?

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MOTLBot *thinks* it was, but cannot prove it as the thread was edited and the card was removed after the trade was finalized. Datatog says that it was not listed as foreign on MOTLBot's list.

I'm considering posting their trade negotiations (edited, obv). Do you think that would help out?

Thanks,
Jazaray

__________________
A Plastered Dragon Original Limerick:
There was a nice lassie named Jaz
Many wished to have what she has,
A delicate face,
A soft warm embrace,
And a whole lot of bedroom pizzazz.

WeedIan: Jazaray is like MOTL's Mom.

-------------------------------

Datatog - posted offer in the MOTLBot H/W list.

MOTLBot sent PM to Datatog.

----- Original Message Datatog-----
didn't receive a pm

----- Original Message MOTLBot-----
Strange. You wrote in my H/W thread:

quote:

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Originally posted by Datatog:
could you check my list for your HP (card name)? thanks!!

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Here are the pictures of card. There are some waving on the top of the card.

link1
link2
link3
link4

I can take (card name) (+some throw in) or (card name) (+some throw in) for my HP (card name). Let me know what do you think about that.

----- Original Message Datatog-----
I could do:
1 (card name)
1 (card name)

your:
HP (card name)

Id kindly ask that youd send first due to refs. My address is:
Datatog address

...or counter offer. Please respond with your address to confirm. thanks!

----- Original Message MOTLBot-----
Package sent. LMK when it arrives.

----- Original Message Datatog-----
dude, not happy. (Card name) is in (Foreign Language)! I did not ask for a (Foreign Language) copy, nor did your list say (Foreign Language) copy. I will not trade for this. You will need to cover return shipping back to you...
Lemme know what you are planning to do.

----- Original Message MOTLBot-----
Hi,

You received pictures of the card. They are below in our conversation. So I don't see the reason why I should cover return shipping. I'm waiting for your end of the trade.

----- Original Message Datatog-----
Nope. I will bring this to a Mod. I do not have to take pictures, and as stated in the MOTL rules any card that doesnt have a language next to it is assumed to be English. I will be contacting the MOD immediately. I will not pay for any part of this transaction.

----------------------------------------

Sidenote: As this is what I was sent as the PM exchange, I must assume that MOTLBot replied with an address to confirm the trade.

Second Sidenote: I asked MOTLBot for the answer to question 2 from iluvhyppies.

quote:

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Originally posted by Iluvhyppies:

2. In a country where English is not the native language how readily available are packs of english cards?

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The answer is: All packs that are sold in stores MOTLBot's country are in English

Thanks,
Jazaray

__________________
A Plastered Dragon Original Limerick:
There was a nice lassie named Jaz
Many wished to have what she has,
A delicate face,
A soft warm embrace,
And a whole lot of bedroom pizzazz.

WeedIan: Jazaray is like MOTL's Mom.

I don't believe that this information will identify the 2 parties, so for those curious, the card in question is a German Sensei's Divining Top if that helps to determine the best solution.

__________________
There's no need to fear, UNDERDOG is here!

All your Gruul Nodorogs are belong to me. Trade them to me, please!

Report rules violations.

I say that's Datatog's problem. If Datatog doesn't want what was sent AND what was sent is what was in the scan or pic, Datatog should eat the cost of undoing this trade.

__________________
"Message to women worldwide: Girls....we're stupid. We don't like games. We don't know games. We can't read minds. Say it like you mean or STFU." -rockondon

quote:

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Originally posted by chaos021:
I really can't believe this. If you won't take time to look at a picture or a scan, then what's the point? How would I know that you're actually reading the text I send to the other party involved?

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Exactly.
If I provide you information, I expect you to use that information prior to an agreement being reached. Would you accept an argument of "I didn't bother reading that it was German?" I'd expect not. Not viewing the images of the card is just as bad.

quote:

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Look at the policy :all cards assumed english unless STATED. Nothing was stated, only an image sent to show condition

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