Honestly, it's a tough decision and I don't know if there's a banning on one card that really gets to the heart of it. As it is now, Legacy seems dominated by the cheat fatties plan.

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Originally posted by skizzikmonger:
They won't ban the fatties because there's too many of them. I doubt they ban the reanimate spells because they can be answered by a 1/2 hybrid elf and a "free" black instant. If they ban anything, they'll ban Show and Tell and Sneak Attack.

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Originally posted by skizzikmonger:
They won't ban the fatties because there's too many of them. I doubt they ban the reanimate spells because they can be answered by a 1/2 hybrid elf and a "free" black instant. If they ban anything, they'll ban Show and Tell and Sneak Attack.

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Probably right. I think Show and Tell is the bigger problem, simply because it enables Omniscience as well. But there's certainly an argument to be made for yanking Sneak Attack as well.

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The deck may not be broken to always but its a similar reason to why they banned BBE in modern.

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Originally posted by iccarus:
Probably right. I think Show and Tell is the bigger problem, simply because it enables Omniscience as well. But there's certainly an argument to be made for yanking Sneak Attack as well.

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Originally posted by skizzikmonger:
They won't ban the fatties because there's too many of them. I doubt they ban the reanimate spells because they can be answered by a 1/2 hybrid elf and a "free" black instant. If they ban anything, they'll ban Show and Tell and Sneak Attack.

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Originally posted by Vegas10:
how is Show and Tell anymore broken than any other fast combo deck in legacy? I mean there are lots of combo decks than can win t1 - t3, is this deck really more broken than any of those? And isn't legacy the format for insane things like that? most of the t16's still look very diverse seems like alor of decks are still playable, banning should be a last resort and only happen if a card waqrps the entire format, not sure that has happened with this since alot of the decks that were played and performing before Show and Tell still are performing even with it's presence. Also with so many cards availible is it possible people still havn't found the deck that owns Show and Tell maybe more inovation could happen instead of just ban something becasue it is difficult to beat if you don't adjust to it, just saying.

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Show and Tell is extremely easy to assembly with any number of single cards, essentially making it a two card combo. Emrakul, Grislebrand, Omniscience, etc. If you resolve that one spell, chances are the game is over. There's very little hate that specifically targets it as well. You either snag a piece of the combo with targeted discard or you manage to break through their counter wall.

Obviously Legacy is full of combo and there are plenty of other broken plays, and SaT may just be the current flavor of the month in the meta. Is it oppressive yet? Probably not. I'm not saying it's going to be banned or should be banned. I'm just saying that if they were going to ban something, SaT would be the likely target since Emrakul was never meant to be played for three mana.

I do agree that the meta will likely adapt and someone will find a deck that can compete against Sneak-and-Show combos, as well as the rest of the field.

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Originally posted by iccarus:
There's very little hate that specifically targets it as well. You either snag a piece of the combo with targeted discard or you manage to break through their counter wall.

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Originally posted by Leeroy:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by iccarus:
There's very little hate that specifically targets it as well. You either snag a piece of the combo with targeted discard or you manage to break through their counter wall.

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Originally posted by mulder:
That won't help if they Show And Tell Griselbrand, since they'll just draw 7 or 14 cards in response. The only thing that will help is Humility, which is a sideboard card at best.

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Pithing Needle, Damping Matrix, Cursed Totem, Linvala, Keeper of Silence.

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Originally posted by Pail42:
Pithing Needle, Damping Matrix, Cursed Totem, Linvala, Keeper of Silence.

There are lots of ways to stop Griselbrand from drawing cards, but I agree pretty much all of them are reactionary sideboard cards.

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Originally posted by Pail42:
Pithing Needle, Damping Matrix, Cursed Totem, Linvala, Keeper of Silence.

There are lots of ways to stop Griselbrand from drawing cards, but I agree pretty much all of them are reactionary sideboard cards.

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Originally posted by mulder:
Totally agree. Show And Tell is an abomination that needs to go.

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Originally posted by mulder:
True... But then there's still the small issue of the 7/7 flying lifelink :-(. Not to mention that those cards do nothing against Emrakul or even Progenitus... .

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Show and Tell is completely fine. Yes, there are blowouts. For a card that symmetrical, there will always be blowouts. But most Legacy players have seen enough Show and Tells that are blow-outs the other way around also (Karakas locks out Emrakul, Venser/O-ring, Humility locks).

Show and Tell is an okay card. What's crazy are the fatties. Show and Tell is not getting crazy, the fatties are getting crazier. Thank you EDH for Emrakul, Griselbrand, Omniscience, etc.

Remember when Progenitus was the biggest baddest thing you can cheat out? Then it was Iona, then it was Emrakul, then it was Griselbrand.....

And no one....no one questioned Show and Tell/Natural Order back when Progenitus was the badass.

btw, with cursed totem a 7/7 flying lifelink is NOTHING. Under the same conditions, Sphinx of the Steel Wind is a 6/6 flying lifelink first strike with 2 protections and vigilance. You don't win enough games with just fatties attacking anymore.

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Originally posted by JoshSherman:
Pardon my ignorance, but it looks to me like you're mentioning sideboard cards? What do you do game one?

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The best option against SaT is probably to play a different deck that can reliably win faster.

There aren't a lot of defenses against Show and Tell. Appetite for Brains(Griselbrand) or Duress(Omniscience) might work 'okay' as a main deck options because they also affect other decks, or as Choco Man points out you could play permanents that are equally as nasty as your opponent's creature.

For me personally, though, I feel that SnT got a huge boost from the printing of Omniscience. As a card, omniscience essentially ends the game the turn they play SnT rather than following turn due to the ability of the deck at that point to just wishboard a win condition (burning wish/Petals of insight/Emrakul or storm). Omniscience also fundamentally ruins the interplay between gilded drake and and SnT, essentially creating a situation where SnT is a "risk-free" win-con.

IMO, the smart move is not to ban the enablers suck as SnT or Sneak Attack (legacy should be the form for such cards after all), but rather to ban the one cards that gives that deck a disproportionate advantage against the checks and balences that the enablers were built around (SnT doesn't give haste, Sneak Attack is 4CMC 1 activation making it a slower card in a fast format). For me, that means banning Omniscience. Banning Omniscience slows SnT down one turn, buying a crucial turn for the deck's opponents to respond and putting the ball in the court of the SnT player to protect their BFB (Big-Fat-Bastard).

Just my opinion on the SnT problem.

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Originally posted by marlo213:
Why doesn't everyone want something banned? How about we unban some stuff, like mind twist, earthcraft or yawgmoth's bargain? But seriously, wizards only ban stuff that the people don't see coming, like BBE or seething song. So if they were to ban something for the SaT deck, it would probably be ancient tomb or lotus petal

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