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Author Topic:   Have I been dumb or have I been scammed (or both) ?
Bin Laden is dead
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posted April 29, 2013 03:28 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Bin Laden is dead Click Here to Email Bin Laden is dead Send a private message to Bin Laden is dead Click to send Bin Laden is dead an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
I bought these IT BB Underground Seas:

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h56/Gabethebabe68/MtG%20Collection/Selling/Sea8.jpg
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h56/Gabethebabe68/MtG%20Collection/Selling/Sea6.jpg
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h56/Gabethebabe68/MtG%20Collection/Selling/Sea3.jpg

Anything wrong with them?

Well, actually yes, 2/3 have been inked, something that I noticed only when I inspected the cards upon receipt.

I was confirmed mad. Seller sold them as EXC/EXC+, with no comments about inking and denies responsibility by saying: "Hey I provide the scans for a reason. What do you think, I am selling dimes for a nickle?" and has stopped responding to my e-mails.

In the scans it can be seen two have been inked, but this is something that EASILY escapes someone and I have looked at the scans more than once before buying.

Seller has 600+ feedback on MKM, so I didn't expect these practices.

Of course I have like all necessary personal details from the buyer, who is from Spain, just as I am (only at 1600 km distance). Do you think I would have a chance pressing charges (going to the police etc) or is this a lost cause?

__________________
Only 10 duals exist. 4 of them are playable.

 
iccarus
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posted April 29, 2013 05:12 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for iccarus Click Here to Email iccarus Send a private message to iccarus Click to send iccarus an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View iccarus's Have/Want ListView iccarus's Have/Want List
Not sure how MKM works. Is there a dispute process you can go through? Most people view inked cards automatically as poor condition, so you would probably win on that claim. I'm assuming you did not use a payment method where you can file a chargeback.

__________________
Wisconsin - smells like dairy air!

I collect Granite Gargoyles. Send them my way.

 
wayne
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posted April 29, 2013 05:59 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for wayne Click Here to Email wayne Send a private message to wayne Click to send wayne an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View wayne's Have/Want ListView wayne's Have/Want List
Not sure what the dispute process on MKM is, but the seller delivered the cards in the scans, so there might not be much of a case. He could even go as far as saying he was using a different grading scale. Leave negative feedback I guess.
 
Bin Laden is dead
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posted April 29, 2013 06:09 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Bin Laden is dead Click Here to Email Bin Laden is dead Send a private message to Bin Laden is dead Click to send Bin Laden is dead an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
I did not buy through MKM, so whatever there procedure is, is irrelevant.

__________________
Only 10 duals exist. 4 of them are playable.

 
AGO
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posted April 29, 2013 06:09 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for AGO Click Here to Email AGO Send a private message to AGO Click to send AGO an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View AGO's Trade Auction or SaleView AGO's Trade Auction or Sale
I believe you both are at fault here. He should have mentioned they were inked but it is very obvious in the scans they are. Not sure how MKM works with the dispute process. Try that first and leave a neg. As for the police I think this would be nothing but a laughing matter to them.
 
walkerdog
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posted April 29, 2013 07:13 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for walkerdog Click Here to Email walkerdog Send a private message to walkerdog Click to send walkerdog an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View walkerdog's Have/Want ListView walkerdog's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by AGO:
I believe you both are at fault here. He should have mentioned they were inked but it is very obvious in the scans they are. Not sure how MKM works with the dispute process. Try that first and leave a neg. As for the police I think this would be nothing but a laughing matter to them.

I don't agree that OP is at fault. If you don't know what to look for (I don't) the inking is not clear, EXC/EXC+ does not accurately (to my mind) distinguish inked items from merely worn items. I believe most graders on here would be pretty ****ed if the inking was not either explicitly remarked on or if the grade wasn't adjusted accordingly.

 
Absurd90
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posted April 29, 2013 07:23 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Absurd90 Click Here to Email Absurd90 Send a private message to Absurd90 Click to send Absurd90 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Send them back and get refund?
 
LandDestroyer
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posted April 29, 2013 07:59 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for LandDestroyer Click Here to Email LandDestroyer Send a private message to LandDestroyer Click to send LandDestroyer an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View LandDestroyer's Have/Want ListView LandDestroyer's Have/Want List
The seller sold them as 1 condition. For him to have a case at all he would have to prove that sites generally allow for inked cards to be ex/ex+. IMO.
 
scipio624
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posted April 29, 2013 08:49 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for scipio624 Click Here to Email scipio624 Send a private message to scipio624 Click to send scipio624 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
I don't see any harm to you in contacting the police. He clearly misrepresented the items he sold you and since he sounds knowledgeable about magic he would know that there is no way any inked card could receive an EX grade or higher. Pretty sure knowingly misrepresenting something for financial gain is criminal. Good luck, I'm curious to find out how it turns out.
 
Volcanon
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posted April 29, 2013 09:27 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Volcanon Click Here to Email Volcanon Send a private message to Volcanon Click to send Volcanon an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Bin Laden is dead:
I did not buy through MKM, so whatever there procedure is, is irrelevant.


Where did you buy them from?

 
iccarus
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posted April 29, 2013 11:14 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for iccarus Click Here to Email iccarus Send a private message to iccarus Click to send iccarus an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View iccarus's Have/Want ListView iccarus's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by Bin Laden is dead:
I did not buy through MKM, so whatever there procedure is, is irrelevant.


The recourse available to you is largely dependent on how and where you bought them. Also, what payment method was used for the sale.

If it was a transaction done outside the jurisdiction of an established site then you are pretty much hosed. You could file a report with the police but I highly doubt it will produce the result you are hoping for. If you didn't use PayPal non-gift you don't even have the ability to try for a chargeback.

__________________
Wisconsin - smells like dairy air!

I collect Granite Gargoyles. Send them my way.


[Edited 1 times, lastly by iccarus on April 29, 2013]

 
Vegas10
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posted April 29, 2013 11:49 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Vegas10 Click Here to Email Vegas10 Send a private message to Vegas10 Click to send Vegas10 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Vegas10's Have/Want ListView Vegas10's Have/Want List
Your answer is both
You are dumb for not seeing the inking in the scan (I saw it and one of them is real obvious),not trying to be mean but when buying this kind of stuff check scans very very closly
However you were clearly scammed as the seller misrepresented condition when he claimed inked cards are in EX condition.
Your recourse will largley depend on your payment method in this case as far as getting a refund, and if you didn't use any official site for the purchase then I doubt you will have any real legal recourse, I doubt the Spainish police will bend over backwards to help a person from a forgien country over a card game, you can try butthey will likley be more worried about other things.
 
Bin Laden is dead
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posted April 29, 2013 12:08 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Bin Laden is dead Click Here to Email Bin Laden is dead Send a private message to Bin Laden is dead Click to send Bin Laden is dead an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Vegas10:
I doubt the Spainish police will bend over backwards to help a person from a forgien country over a card game, you can try butthey will likley be more worried about other things.


we both live in Spain. I can report it to the local police and start calling the local police where seller lives.
EDIT: or send e-mails to the unit for "delitos informáticos" of the national police (I have that e-mail address).

quote:
Originally posted by Volcanon:
Where did you buy them from?


Direct person to person. I paid by bank transfer. Besides the police I have no resources.

Maybe I should have seen it, but as seller you set yourself up for a nice freeroll by misrepresenting the rest of the description. I mean, if you look at the scans on your computer and the light is not very good, you just don't see it.

__________________
Only 10 duals exist. 4 of them are playable.


[Edited 1 times, lastly by Bin Laden is dead on April 29, 2013]

 
slurpee
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posted April 29, 2013 01:10 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for slurpee Click Here to Email slurpee Send a private message to slurpee Click to send slurpee an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View slurpee's Trade Auction or SaleView slurpee's Trade Auction or Sale
perhaps it is just me but If I provide you with scans of the actual card then it is up to you to grade them at that point. What point is there unless the scans are fuzzy, which these are not. Yes you can see the inking, yes some people will grade cards inked as EX ( I don't but some do), yes you should have seen it at the beginning. Clearly the guy owned a scanner, if in doubt you could have gotten higher resolution scans.

As for the cops if they don't laugh at you on the phone they sure will after they hang up.

Ask yourself a simple question did you receive the cards in the picture, if so you need to move on and learn the lesson here?? Look at the actual scans if they are provided and actually do your homework.

[Edited 1 times, lastly by slurpee on April 29, 2013]

 
LandDestroyer
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posted April 29, 2013 02:07 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for LandDestroyer Click Here to Email LandDestroyer Send a private message to LandDestroyer Click to send LandDestroyer an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View LandDestroyer's Have/Want ListView LandDestroyer's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by slurpee:
perhaps it is just me but If I provide you with scans of the actual card then it is up to you to grade them at that point. What point is there unless the scans are fuzzy, which these are not. Yes you can see the inking, yes some people will grade cards inked as EX ( I don't but some do), yes you should have seen it at the beginning. Clearly the guy owned a scanner, if in doubt you could have gotten higher resolution scans.

As for the cops if they don't laugh at you on the phone they sure will after they hang up.

Ask yourself a simple question did you receive the cards in the picture, if so you need to move on and learn the lesson here?? Look at the actual scans if they are provided and actually do your homework.


Though I agree with all this, I still think it's the seller's responsibility to inform you of clear issues that you might not have noticed. Example: scanner won't make it clear whether a card has warping. If a card has been inked subtly that should be made clear imo. It's a tough situation since he provided you scans though...but he was obviously hoping you didn't notice. GL, OP.

 
JayC
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posted April 29, 2013 02:34 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for JayC Click Here to Email JayC Send a private message to JayC Click to send JayC an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
He purposely didn't state they were inked. Everything else is just bull****.
 
bigballashotcaller
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posted April 29, 2013 06:12 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for bigballashotcaller Click Here to Email bigballashotcaller Send a private message to bigballashotcaller Click to send bigballashotcaller an Instant MessageVisit bigballashotcaller's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View bigballashotcaller's Have/Want ListView bigballashotcaller's Have/Want List
There is zero chance any cards that are INKED can be considered EX/SP, or anything. They are Poor condition, and to sell them as anything else is a blatant misrepresentation/misstatement, and fraudulent. For a private transaction I don't know what other recourse you have than contacting the local police (or threatening to at a very minimum). Good luck.
 
Pail42
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posted April 29, 2013 09:18 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Pail42 Send a private message to Pail42 Click to send Pail42 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Pail42's Have/Want ListView Pail42's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by bigballashotcaller:
I don't know what other recourse you have than contacting the local police (or threatening to at a very minimum). Good luck.

He could always try asking politely for a refund+return because the seller should have mentioned they were inked.

It's usually good to start something like this without threatening to sue or file charges until the polite approach doesn't work.

 
paragondave
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posted April 29, 2013 09:54 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for paragondave Click Here to Email paragondave Send a private message to paragondave Click to send paragondave an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View paragondave's Have/Want ListView paragondave's Have/Want List
probably a little bit of both.
 
Bin Laden is dead
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posted April 29, 2013 10:58 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Bin Laden is dead Click Here to Email Bin Laden is dead Send a private message to Bin Laden is dead Click to send Bin Laden is dead an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Pail42:
He could always try asking politely for a refund+return because the seller should have mentioned they were inked.

It's usually good to start something like this without threatening to sue or file charges until the polite approach doesn't work.


We already passed this stage. He has not responded to my e-mails for more than one week. My next action will be to PM him through MKM (so I know he will get it) with his last chance to cooperate.

If anything, it will be interesting.

Also I have started some investigations to get his address + telno and call him. www is a powerful tool.

__________________
Only 10 duals exist. 4 of them are playable.

 
Bin Laden is dead
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posted April 29, 2013 11:20 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Bin Laden is dead Click Here to Email Bin Laden is dead Send a private message to Bin Laden is dead Click to send Bin Laden is dead an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
I just sent this message by MKM PM (google translate + some corrections):

XXXX,

I give you one last chance to cooperate and find a solution to our problem.

If not, I will formalize a complaint with the local police and then follow the instructions here: http://www.fraudeenred.com/how.htm

I have presented my case in an international MtG forum and what you've done is a misrepresentation of items (not informing the buyer that the cards are inked, classifying inked cards as EXC - when it should be POOR) and this is fraudulent. It's all very easy to prove. Is it my mistake to not see it in the scans? Yes, no doubt. But to misrepresent articles and if the customer does not see the flaws, deny all responsibilities is a business method that no legal system will allow.

If legal actions have no effect, because the police are not interested in MtG, then I have to take the loss. But I have many friends in the T1 metagame of Catalunya and am on three international MtG forums and they will know your name. This way I can avoid what has happened to me, will happen to others as well.


regards


XXXXX

 
yoriagami
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posted May 08, 2013 10:26 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for yoriagami Click Here to Email yoriagami Send a private message to yoriagami Click to send yoriagami an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View yoriagami's Have/Want ListView yoriagami's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by slurpee:
perhaps it is just me but If I provide you with scans of the actual card then it is up to you to grade them at that point. What point is there unless the scans are fuzzy, which these are not. Yes you can see the inking, yes some people will grade cards inked as EX ( I don't but some do), yes you should have seen it at the beginning. Clearly the guy owned a scanner, if in doubt you could have gotten higher resolution scans.

I'd find it in your moral obligation to specifically disclose any particular damage to the card besides general play wear, such as a crease, bend, warping, or INKING. Otherwise it's like I sell you a car described as "used / like new" but leave you to find out the brakes don't work...
But I do understand your reasoning. Which is why...

Tip to the OP: when you receive scans, take the trouble to say that you could not infer any particular damage to the cards and ask SPECIFICALLY if they have any damage that you may have missed (such as a crease, bend, inking, etc.).

quote:
Originally posted by slurpee:
As for the cops if they don't laugh at you on the phone they sure will after they hang up.

Very much true, sadly. This is a dead end for the OP I'm afraid.

 
Volcanon
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posted May 08, 2013 11:04 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Volcanon Click Here to Email Volcanon Send a private message to Volcanon Click to send Volcanon an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
I'm sure in Spain you can file criminal charges on your own. Figure out how to do so, and do it where you live. This will force him to travel to where you are to answer them.
 
Bin Laden is dead
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posted May 08, 2013 11:08 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Bin Laden is dead Click Here to Email Bin Laden is dead Send a private message to Bin Laden is dead Click to send Bin Laden is dead an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
I sold the seas for the price I bought them for

Instead of making 10-15% profit I learned a lesson, which is equally valuable.

__________________
Only 10 duals exist. 4 of them are playable.

 

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