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Author Topic:   Limited Format Discussion
junichi
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posted January 03, 2012 04:05 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for junichi Click Here to Email junichi Send a private message to junichi Click to send junichi an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View junichi's Have/Want ListView junichi's Have/Want List
I didn't see any thread dedicated to draft/sealed discussion, and would like to have a central place where I could collect data and opinions from various MOTLer on certain issues, like pick order and such.

Anyway, I came across this scenario last night, and would like to have people who are experienced in drafting to give me their opinion on this.

I was drafting a burning vengeance deck, and after 2 packs, I have 2 vengeance and a handful of flashback spells. On pack 3, I opened a third vengeance and a balefire dragon. I was tempted to pick balefire dragon just because it could win games by itself, and it also gives me a second angle to win the game if somehow the burning vengeance isn't getting it done. However, I end up taking the vengeance instead, because having 3 vengeance in a 40 card deck is just insane, and I wasn't sure if it would wheel back to me.

Would you have done differently?

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WeedIan
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posted January 03, 2012 04:54 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for WeedIan Click Here to Email WeedIan Send a private message to WeedIan Click to send WeedIan an Instant MessageVisit WeedIan's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View WeedIan's Have/Want ListView WeedIan's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by junichi:
I didn't see any thread dedicated to draft/sealed discussion, and would like to have a central place where I could collect data and opinions from various MOTLer on certain issues, like pick order and such.

Anyway, I came across this scenario last night, and would like to have people who are experienced in drafting to give me their opinion on this.

I was drafting a burning vengeance deck, and after 2 packs, I have 2 vengeance and a handful of flashback spells. On pack 3, I opened a third vengeance and a balefire dragon. I was tempted to pick balefire dragon just because it could win games by itself, and it also gives me a second angle to win the game if somehow the burning vengeance isn't getting it done. However, I end up taking the vengeance instead, because having 3 vengeance in a 40 card deck is just insane, and I wasn't sure if it would wheel back to me.

Would you have done differently?


I'd probably have taken the dragon. If 2 vengeances is usually the most I've gotten so I'd rather be greedy on a bomb that wins on its own and could turn games in my favor.

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caquaa
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posted January 03, 2012 04:58 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for caquaa Click Here to Email caquaa Send a private message to caquaa Click to send caquaa an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View caquaa's Trade Auction or SaleView caquaa's Trade Auction or Sale
I think the BV deck is all in if you go that route. Picking random flashback spells does you no good w/o more BV. I'd say the BV was the right choice. BV in multiples in play isn't really a bad thing...
 
rockondon
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posted January 03, 2012 04:59 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for rockondon Click Here to Email rockondon Send a private message to rockondon Click to send rockondon an Instant MessageVisit rockondon's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View rockondon's Have/Want ListView rockondon's Have/Want List
These kind of questions depend heavily on the other cards that have been drafted but in most cases I would have taken the balefire dragon.

...for 2 reasons.

1) its awesome in draft.

2) because if you were able to draft 2 burning vengeance (and various flashback spells) from the first two packs, there's a pretty good chance that the 3rd burning vengeance would make its way to you. By the 3rd pack people should have established what their decks are gonna be, and they shouldn't be burning vengeance because you drafted those cards already. Balefire dragon is not the kind of card I would expect to make it through everybody without being picked.

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junichi
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posted January 03, 2012 05:13 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for junichi Click Here to Email junichi Send a private message to junichi Click to send junichi an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View junichi's Have/Want ListView junichi's Have/Want List
My flashback spells were average. I was running r/u/g vengeance with 3x Desperate Ravings, 2x Silent Departure, 1x Dream Twist, 2x Gnaw to the Bone, 2x Memory's Journey, and a Runic Repetition to chain Memroy's Journey. The rest of my deck are 2x Avacyn's Pilgrim, Armored Skaab, Ambush Viper, a few other creatures with a big butt to defend, and 2 Mulch to dig.

quote:
Originally posted by rockondon:
These kind of questions depend heavily on the other cards that have been drafted but in most cases I would have taken the balefire dragon.

...for 2 reasons.

1) its awesome in draft.

2) because if you were able to draft 2 burning vengeance (and various flashback spells) from the first two packs, there's a pretty good chance that the 3rd burning vengeance would make its way to you. By the 3rd pack people should have established what their decks are gonna be, and they shouldn't be burning vengeance because you drafted those cards already. Balefire dragon is not the kind of card I would expect to make it through everybody without being picked.


If I was sure the Vengeance will be wheeled back to me, than of course, I would take the dragon, but since the first 2 Vengeance were passed to me, I wasn't sure if the other drafters would have no sense of danger and let a guy have 3 Vengeance instead of hate drafting it. Now this leads to another question, was I over thinking about being hate drafted?
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If you don't like your job, you don't strike! You just go in every day, and do it really half assed. That's the American way. - Homer


[Edited 1 times, lastly by junichi on January 03, 2012]

MAB_Rapper
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posted January 03, 2012 05:31 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for MAB_Rapper Click Here to Email MAB_Rapper Send a private message to MAB_Rapper Click to send MAB_Rapper an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View MAB_Rapper's Trade Auction or SaleView MAB_Rapper's Trade Auction or Sale
I would have taken the Dragon. yes, the BV win concept is fine, but you need another way to win. I played this exact deck a few weeks after drafting it and it was fine, because I also had 2 Delvers and a Bloodline Keeper.

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FleeceItOut
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posted January 03, 2012 06:03 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for FleeceItOut Click Here to Email FleeceItOut Send a private message to FleeceItOut Click to send FleeceItOut an Instant MessageVisit FleeceItOut's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
dragon
 
MTDetermine
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posted January 03, 2012 06:19 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for MTDetermine Click Here to Email MTDetermine Send a private message to MTDetermine Click to send MTDetermine an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Curious, after choosing the 3rd BV, how did you perform in that draft? If you finish highly, then picking the 3rd BV is likely to be the right decision, from an empyrical point of view.
 
Vegas10
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posted January 03, 2012 06:58 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Vegas10 Click Here to Email Vegas10 Send a private message to Vegas10 Click to send Vegas10 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Vegas10's Have/Want ListView Vegas10's Have/Want List
I would have taken the dragon for 2 reasons, gives you an alternate win in case you don't draw vengence or it gets destroyed, plus the BV would likley table since it is highly unlikley 2 people at the same table can draft that archtype. That beinng said going your route isn't terrible as long as your deck is solid.
 
junichi
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posted January 03, 2012 07:43 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for junichi Click Here to Email junichi Send a private message to junichi Click to send junichi an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View junichi's Have/Want ListView junichi's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by MTDetermine:
Curious, after choosing the 3rd BV, how did you perform in that draft? If you finish highly, then picking the 3rd BV is likely to be the right decision, from an empyrical point of view.

I got to round 2 game 3, with 2 burning vengeance out, 9 cards left with 5 flashback spell and a runic, I drew land land land and died in front of an army of creatures.

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If you don't like your job, you don't strike! You just go in every day, and do it really half assed. That's the American way. - Homer

Speed Demon
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posted January 03, 2012 07:53 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Speed Demon Click Here to Email Speed Demon Send a private message to Speed Demon Click to send Speed Demon an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Vengeance and then pick up flashback spells the first time around (i.e stuff like nightbird's clutchs go higher than random beater).
 
junichi
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posted January 03, 2012 08:37 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for junichi Click Here to Email junichi Send a private message to junichi Click to send junichi an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View junichi's Have/Want ListView junichi's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by Speed Demon:
Vengeance and then pick up flashback spells the first time around (i.e stuff like nightbird's clutchs go higher than random beater).

No offense, but this sounds awful.

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If you don't like your job, you don't strike! You just go in every day, and do it really half assed. That's the American way. - Homer

MTDetermine
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posted January 03, 2012 08:43 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for MTDetermine Click Here to Email MTDetermine Send a private message to MTDetermine Click to send MTDetermine an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by junichi:
I got to round 2 game 3, with 2 burning vengeance out, 9 cards left with 5 flashback spell and a runic, I drew land land land and died in front of an army of creatures.


Probability is 1 out of 9, multiply by 1 out of 8, multiply by 1 out of 7, which gives 0.2%. You are really out of luck for that game.....

I think the suggestion of "picking the dragon as the 3rd BV will unlikely be pick by someone else" is quite sensible, particularly as the dragon is a limited bomb.

 
junichi
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posted January 10, 2012 11:13 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for junichi Click Here to Email junichi Send a private message to junichi Click to send junichi an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View junichi's Have/Want ListView junichi's Have/Want List
I fired up MTGO last night and joined an 8-4. The draft was pretty awkward. I was passed an early Angel of Flight Alabaster, a pick 4 Blasphemous Act and a late Kruin Outlaw. Turns out there were 3 guys drafting mill (lol?), and a few others playing human. Apparently, there are people out there who are much worst than I do when it comes to reading and showing signals.

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If you don't like your job, you don't strike! You just go in every day, and do it really half assed. That's the American way. - Homer

ryan2754
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posted January 10, 2012 11:33 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for ryan2754 Click Here to Email ryan2754 Send a private message to ryan2754 Click to send ryan2754 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View ryan2754's Have/Want ListView ryan2754's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by junichi:
I fired up MTGO last night and joined an 8-4. The draft was pretty awkward. I was passed an early Angel of Flight Alabaster, a pick 4 Blasphemous Act and a late Kruin Outlaw. Turns out there were 3 guys drafting mill (lol?), and a few others playing human. Apparently, there are people out there who are much worst than I do when it comes to reading and showing signals.




Yeah, that stuff cracks me up.
I was in an 8-4 and I found out I was the only one playing red (with white).
4 Bloodcrazed Neonate, 3 Brimstone Volley, 2 Rally the Peasants, 1 Fiend Hunter, 1 Hanweir Watchkeep, and 1 Balefire Dragon later, I WIN.

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NiceFaceLOL
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posted January 10, 2012 11:43 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for NiceFaceLOL Click Here to Email NiceFaceLOL Send a private message to NiceFaceLOL Click to send NiceFaceLOL an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Bloodcrazed neonate is basically unplayable. =(

Edit: Also BV, most competent players will hold their good removal and not use it on your ****ing fortress crabs, having just one sweet guy just turns it into a lightning rod for their one removal spell.

[Edited 1 times, lastly by NiceFaceLOL on January 10, 2012]

 
caquaa
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posted January 10, 2012 12:34 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for caquaa Click Here to Email caquaa Send a private message to caquaa Click to send caquaa an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View caquaa's Trade Auction or SaleView caquaa's Trade Auction or Sale
quote:
Originally posted by NiceFaceLOL:
Bloodcrazed neonate is basically unplayable. =(


its actually an archetype often ran with Nightbird's Clutches. Its cute.

 
Alexisonfyre
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posted January 11, 2012 04:55 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Alexisonfyre Send a private message to Alexisonfyre Click to send Alexisonfyre an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by MTDetermine:
Probability is 1 out of 9, multiply by 1 out of 8, multiply by 1 out of 7, which gives 0.2%. You are really out of luck for that game.....

I think the suggestion of "picking the dragon as the 3rd BV will unlikely be pick by someone else" is quite sensible, particularly as the dragon is a limited bomb.


The good calc is (3/9)*(2/8)*(1/7) = 1/84 chance or 1,2% of drawing three lands in a row in that situation.

 
wayne
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posted January 11, 2012 06:26 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for wayne Click Here to Email wayne Send a private message to wayne Click to send wayne an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View wayne's Have/Want ListView wayne's Have/Want List
I'm quite bored of limited, I have opponents who draw Bloodline Keeper every game while I never draw mine
 
caquaa
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posted January 11, 2012 09:23 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for caquaa Click Here to Email caquaa Send a private message to caquaa Click to send caquaa an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View caquaa's Trade Auction or SaleView caquaa's Trade Auction or Sale
quote:
Originally posted by wayne:
I'm quite bored of limited, I have opponents who draw Bloodline Keeper every game while I never draw mine

at least you can play it. Past two times i opened it I wasn't in black and it was pack 2 and pack 3 in separate drafts. My preference is SOM drafts. They're actually worth while. Innistrad doesn't really do it for me.

 
AlmostGrown
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posted January 11, 2012 11:31 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for AlmostGrown Click Here to Email AlmostGrown Send a private message to AlmostGrown Click to send AlmostGrown an Instant MessageVisit AlmostGrown's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View AlmostGrown's Have/Want ListView AlmostGrown's Have/Want List
Anybody have good advice for NPH-MBS-SOM limited on MODO? I haven't drafted it in forever, and when it was the draft format I didn't draft it much to begin with. IIRC, RG dinosaurs was a viable archetype. Any suggestions?
 
caquaa
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posted January 12, 2012 12:25 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for caquaa Click Here to Email caquaa Send a private message to caquaa Click to send caquaa an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View caquaa's Trade Auction or SaleView caquaa's Trade Auction or Sale
viable archtypes: (in order of power imo) b/r removal, r/w metalcraft, g/r dinos, other random colors that come together, poison decks.
 
Mr.C
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posted January 12, 2012 01:23 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Mr.C Click Here to Email Mr.C Send a private message to Mr.C Click to send Mr.C an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Mr.C's Have/Want ListView Mr.C's Have/Want List
Am I the only person who likes Trepanation Blade and INquisitor's Flail? I won quite a few drafts on the back of those cards, and always got them late.
 
ryan2754
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posted January 12, 2012 03:22 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for ryan2754 Click Here to Email ryan2754 Send a private message to ryan2754 Click to send ryan2754 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View ryan2754's Have/Want ListView ryan2754's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by Mr.C:
Am I the only person who likes Trepanation Blade and INquisitor's Flail? I won quite a few drafts on the back of those cards, and always got them late.

Trepanation blade is nuts. Won everygame in limited where I've played it.

Flail, not so much. The whole when a creature deals it damage, double it thing is just blah.

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choco man
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posted January 12, 2012 03:26 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for choco man Click Here to Email choco man Send a private message to choco man Click to send choco man an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View choco man's Have/Want ListView choco man's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by AlmostGrown:
Anybody have good advice for NPH-MBS-SOM limited on MODO? I haven't drafted it in forever, and when it was the draft format I didn't draft it much to begin with. IIRC, RG dinosaurs was a viable archetype. Any suggestions?

If you can draft a fast deck around the phyr-mana guys in NPH, go for it.

 

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