First and foremost. Postal receipt and Postal Money Order stub.

Feedback extortion policy
http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/feedback-extortion.html

Me: Sent: Jul-26-11 08:51 AM
Dear gradedmagiccards,

I'm having problems with my bank/PayPal connection.
Would you accept a Postal Money Order if I were to bid?

Thank you for your time,
Keith (sierra-eg)

- sierra-eg

Daniel J. Chang: Sent: Jul-26-11 10:30 AM
Dear sierra-eg,

sir,

yes you can pay money order.

are you interested in making an offer?

- gradedmagiccards

Me: Sent: Jul-26-11 12:44 PM
Dear gradedmagiccards,

Thank you,
I could offer $90 shipped for these five: Black Knight,
Regrowth, Animate Dead, Psionic Blast, and Juggernaut.
Or $75 minus the Black Knight. Either is fine.

I appreciate your time,
Keith (sierra-eg)

- sierra-eg

Daniel J. Chang: Sent: Jul-27-11 10:52 AM
Dear sierra-eg,

Hi,

I can $100 shipped. Would that be a deal? The Regrowth is super hard to find and will sell for much more than you think!

Can you send a money order to:

GMTG: Graded Magic Cards, LLC
PO BOX #73
Auburn, WA 98071

- gradedmagiccards

Me: Sent: Jul-27-11 11:12 AM
Dear gradedmagiccards,

Yes, that sounds good. I appreciate your response. I will get the Money Order and have it shipped to the address posted.

Again, thank you for your time,
Keith (sierra-eg)

- sierra-eg

Daniel J. Chang: Sent: Jul-27-11 11:26 AM
Dear sierra-eg,

thanks, please send it out ASAP, as the items are ending soon.

- gradedmagiccards

Me: Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 12:24:02 -0700 (MST)
I just bought the Postal Money Order,
what name and address should I make it payable to?

confirming shipping address:
GMTG: Graded Magic Cards, LLC
PO BOX #73
Auburn, WA 98071

Thank you.

Daniel J. Chang: Sent: Jul-27-11 12:30 PM
Dear sierra-eg,

Yes correct

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

Me: Sent: Jul-27-11 12:46 PM
Dear gradedmagiccards,

Please excuse the confusion, I wasn't clear.

What name/address do I write on the Money Order,
for -Pay to, and -Address?
An ID is required to cash the Money Order.

Thank you.

- sierra-eg

==============

Under the assumption he would stop the auctions I continued. When I got home from the PO with the Money Order I received this message:

==============

Daniel J. Chang: Sent: Jul-27-11 12:51 PM
sir,

I'm sorry, i made a mistake, i just noticed you wanted 5 cards, i read incorrectly.

The cards are worth more than 100 easily in sales. I can do $125.00 shipped, sorry, I misread your email.

as address and where to make the money order it is the same place:

GMTG: Graded Magic Cards
PO BOX #73
Auburn, WA 98071

Sorry, about this, as the quality of the cards are very strong.

Me: Sent: Jul-27-11 02:03 PM
Unfortunately I gave my wife all of my
money and wont have any until next week.
I do have $16 in my PayPal acc. though.

If you can wait, I'll send the PMO for
$100 today, PayPal the $16, and send
another PMO for the difference next
Monday. Just an idea.

Let me know if this works for you.

Keith (sierra-eg)

Daniel J. Chang: Sent: Jul-27-11 02:10 PM
Well send the 100, and paypal me 26.50 (includes the fee) when u have the rest. Cool?

Me: Sent: Jul-27-11 03:47 PM
That's cool, thanks.
I'll get the MO sent and I'll talk to you soon.

Thank you for your patience,
Keith (sierra-eg)

===========

Less than a week later I checked on the auctions and he let them run to completion.

===========

I messaged: Sent: Aug-01-11 02:31 PM
Hi again,
I noticed the auctions ran to time and are complete.
Is there going to be any problems with that?
I was planning on sending the rest of the payment
today/tomorrow.

Daniel J. Chang: Sent: Aug-01-11 03:50 PM
Hi,

yeah, sorry, I tried to delete the auctions, but they kept on...so i think we will need to figure out either other items you want or I can send you a refund.

Me: Sent: Aug-02-11 00:10 AM
Hi again,
A refund will be fine. I'm only looking for
a few specific cards, the ones in question.

Did you cash the PMO yet? If not you can
send it back and I will cash it.

Daniel J. Chang: Sent: Aug-02-11 10:06 AM
So you're only looking for the cards you were buying originally, no others?

I can check my inventory.

Also, what condition?

Me: Sent: Aug-03-11 04:50 PM
Hi again,

If you have any of these "strictly"
in nm/nm-/ex+ let me know. I'm
upgrading a uncommon/common play set
so anything in lesser condition I
wouldn't be interested in.

2x Hurricane
1x Ice Storm
1x Dragon Welp
1x Flashfires
2x Basalt Monolith
2x Jade Statue
1x Library of Leng

If you don't have any of these
that's fine I'm in no rush to
complete this. Let me know.

Daniel J. Chang: Sent: Aug-08-11 08:24 PM
Dear sierra-eg,

I have these, what are your best prices. They will be decent condition.

i got your check

- gradedmagiccards

Daniel J. Chang: Sent: Aug-16-11 08:47 AM
Dear sierra-eg,

Keith,

I do have these in stock. I guess at this point, I'm leaving to Denver on Sunday for 2 weeks.

Can you get your money back from the postal service? With your money order stub they should be able to do that for you...

I just wanted to let you know that I may not be around to send anything out for a while.

- gradedmagiccards

Me: Sent: Sep-08-11 11:49 AM
Dear gradedmagiccards,

Hi,
Please excuse me for not getting back sooner.

How was your trip to Denver? It must have
been nice this time of year.

When you have a chance I'd like to pick these
up in "NM" if you have them. Thank you.

$15 1x Dragon Whelp
$5 1x Fire Elemental
$5 1x Flashfires
$5 1x Instill Energy
$5 1x Library of Leng

Also, the difference from the $100 will be
fine to get by PayPal.

Thanks again,
Keith (sierra-eg)

Me again: Sent: Sep-12-11 09:37 PM
Dear gradedmagiccards,

I went to the Post Office today and
while I was there I asked about
refunds on Money Orders. They said
an inquiry for a replacement Money
Order or a refund can take up to 60
days and costs $7 and change.

Anyway, just letting you know what
she said. I would still like to get
a couple/few cards from you if I can.
I picked up some already so I would
have to edit the list. I'd like to
get whatever is left of the money
sent to my PayPal account, if that
isn't a problem, or the whole amount
as personal payment (Gift) so I don't
have to pay the $4.

When you get a chance let me know if
that's okay and I'll give you an
updated list and/or my account info.

Thank you.

- sierra-eg

Daniel J. Chang: Sent: Sep-14-11 08:08 AM
Hi,

Send me the list that you have updated.

Me: Sent: Sep-14-11 09:29 AM
Hi,
Let me know if you have these in "NM" for a set.
$5 Instill Energy - unc.
$5 Fire Elemental - unc.
$20 Basalt Monolith - unc.
$5 Library of Leng - unc.

Thank you.

Daniel J. Chang: Sent: Sep-20-11 06:11 PM
keith, still looking, so what did you want me to do?

cash it and give you the remainder in cash?

Me: Sent: Sep-20-11 06:18 PM
Yes please. Through PayPal, if you will.

For your records:
$5 Instill Energy - unc.
$5 Fire Elemental - unc.
$20 Basalt Monolith - unc.
$5 Library of Leng - unc.

Thank you.

Me again: Sent: Sep-20-11 06:24 PM
Also, when your ready here's my PayPal address:
XXXXX@ymail.com

After you locate them, or even if you can only find some it's okay.
When you have a chance please let me know.

Thank you,
Keith

Me again: Sent: Sep-30-11 07:50 AM
Haven't heard from you. Any luck finding those cards? Let me know.

I was looking at some of the items you have listed and I submitted an offer for the Tropical Island.

Keith (sierra-eg)

===========

I sent the above message ten days after his last prior response on Sep 20, 2011 and my original inquiry was on July 26, 2011. Obviously he's been very unprofessional and I was a bit worried at this point that something was funny about this guy and I wanted to get something so I made an offer.

"Best Offer"
ENGLISH REVISED TROPICAL ISLAND | MTG MAGIC: THE GATHERING
Buy It Now price:
$81.88Buy It Now
Your offer price: $75.00
Your terms: It's been some time and to make things easy for the both of us I'd like to get the Tropical Island. If you have any of the other cards yet I will take them also. When you have a chance let me know.
Offer expires: Oct-02-11 07:47:09 PDT

===========

Daniel J. Chang: Sent: Sep-30-11 09:24 AM
Keith,

Sorry, I can't find those cards in the condition you want.

Yes, I got the offer for the Tropical, so I can do 78.00 total includes shipping and give you $22 cash back?

let me know if that works.

Me: Sent: Sep-30-11 10:09 AM
That's fine. If you send the invoice for the offer accepted I'll confirm.

For the $22.00 my PayPal address is XXXXX@ymail.com

Me again: Sent: Sep-30-11 12:04 PM
Shipping Address:
XXXXX XXXXXXX
XXXX XXXXXXXXX XX
XXXXXXXXXX, XX. XXXXX

PayPal Address:
XXXXX@ymail.com

Let me know when you send, thanks.

===========

On Oct 2, 2011 he let the offer expire. He had two REV. Tropical Island listed and when I checked the listing he had removed one but changed the description in the listing which as of now he has been removed altogether. I replied on the Oct 4th, and I also decided to use/click the "Buy it Now" option.

===========

Me: Sent: Oct-04-11 09:25 AM
Dear gradedmagiccards,

Are you using Delivery Confirmation?

Keith

- sierra-eg

Daniel J. Chang: Sent: Oct-04-11 10:59 AM
I noticed you bought another item, did you?

Did you want 2 of them?

And again, Daniel J. Chang: Sent: Oct-04-11 11:09 AM
keith,

did you want 2 of these cards? noticed you bought one online...

Me: Sent: Oct-04-11 11:40 AM
Dear gradedmagiccards,

Hi Dan,
No, just the one is fine. You let the
offer expire after we agreed so to avoid
any confusion I marked it as payment sent.

I haven't received the $22 difference in
my PayPal account. Have you shipped yet,
and if so do you have a tracking number?

Also, the description of the item doesn't
match the picture for the auction, as do
the other items that you have listed for
sale. I do not want a card[s] that is in
"Heavily Played" condition. If you haven't
shipped yet I'd like to discuss other
options.

Please let me know when you receive this
message.

Thank you,
Keith
10/4/11

- sierra-eg

===========

He called me on the phone with some BS about how using the buy it now option wasn't what we agreed on, and I replied, "Yes I know, we originally agreed on five Alpha cards that I sent you a $100 dollars for but you sold them." He paused, and said, "Well, the Rev. Trop isn't killed, you can still play it in a sleeve." I said I don't want any cards in that condition and besides that the picture in the ad doesn't match the description, rather than calling him out for editing the auction. If you've ever seen one of his items on eBay the description is far below the item and almost hidden among the video displays. I asked him if he'd shipped the item yet and he didn't answer, I asked again and after a brief pause he said yes in a low tone. I said no problem, when it gets here I'll send it back with DC and when it arrives please refund my money by PayPal. He hung up on me and two day later I received a cancellation request for the REV Tropical Island. Of course I denied the request. The first example of extortion.

===========

Daniel J. Chang: Sent: Oct-07-11 10:42 AM
keith,

why did you deny my request for the tropical island?????

this will get me the fees back.

i can't refund you till you accept the request...

lmk what is going on.

And again, Daniel J. Chang: Sent: Oct-16-11 12:26 PM
Keith,

I'm not sure what you want me to do, but you're not getting a refund till you cancel the listing you purchased, that wasn't even a purchase (aka the tropical island).

Once I get those fees back I can send you the paypal for 100 dollars.

===========

Per eBay customer support direction, I was able to open a case, and wrote this:

Details you provided:
You have not received the item
You have tried contacting the seller
You contacted the seller by phone
The seller has responded to you
The seller isn't working with you to solve the problem
You entered the phone number XXX XXX XXXX
We can share your phone number with the seller.

Additional information:
"To whom it may concern, I sent the seller $100 (Postal Money Order) for collectible cards. The seller had asked if I wanted to make an offer for the cards he had for auction in response to me asking if he would accept a Postal Money Order if I were to bid because I was having trouble with my bank account at the time. I made an offer and he accepted, so I sent the money but once the seller received the money he sold the items to someone else because he claimed he couldn't stop the auctions. The seller then told me he would look for replacements but after some time I was told he was unable to locate any items. After that I made an offer on another item from his store using the Best Offer option and he accepted and said he'd refund the difference of $22, but he let my "Best Offer" expire so I used the "Buy it Now" option to show record of the transaction and so there would be no further confusion. A week went by and I did not receive any money in my PayPal account nor was the item marked as shipped when I checked the item in My eBay. While looking at the listing I also noticed that the description of the item did not match the picture and I believe the description had been changed to "Heavily Played" from "Light Play". I immediately contacted the seller and told him that I do not want an item in that condition and that at this point I would prefer a refund. Now, the seller Mr. Daniel Chang says, as per his last eBay message today, "I'm not sure what you want me to do, but you're not getting a refund till you cancel the listing you purchased, that wasn't even a purchase (aka the tropical island). Once I get those fees back I can send you the PayPal for 100 dollars." I have spoke with several eBay representatives and they have confirmed that if I were to agree to the item cancellation then Mr. Chang would no longer be responsible or obligated to refund my money. I believe he's aware of this also, and because of that I feel that I am trying to be taken advantage of. I also believe that Mr. Chang has no intention of refunding my money unless there is a third party involved. Up 'til this point there's been nothing but shenanigans on Mr. Chang's part. Once the money is refunded I will gladly cancel the item so Mr. Chang does not incur any wrongful fees but at this time I do not believe that it would be in proper order to do so. I have all receipts and specific messages from Mr. Chang in Folder #1 in my saved messages and can post any additional information if necessary. My main concern is that Mr. Chang will not refund/credit the $100 to my PayPal account (XXXXX@ymail.com) if I were to cancel the item. I'm one step away from getting my money back, and as I said I will gladly, promptly make sure to cancel the purchase order after I receive the money. Thank you very much for your attention to this matter. I hope this can be resolved in a timely fashion. Sincerely, Keith (sierra-eg)
PayPal Account: XXXXX@ymail.com"
You wanted:
"I'd like a refund of $100"

===========

Daniel J. Chang: Sent: Oct-18-11 08:50 PM
keith,

again, you're not getting a refund till i get my final value fees back for the tropical island.

Daniel J. Chang "Case Response": Sent: Oct-20-11 04:40 PM
"keith, Again, i have asked you to cancel the item that you didn't even buy here. Please cancel the listing, and I can refund you the money."

===========

He called again and I said just refund me the money minus the fees and send me another item cancellation and I will cancel the item. When you receive your fees back from eBay please send the rest. I also mention what he had previously said about shipping the item, and he replied that he "luckily retrieved it before it was shipped" -hmmmmm... He also said, what about my listing fees? I said it was your decision to list an item in the first place not mine, I will cancel it after I receive a refund, that's always how it works on eBay. He said, "You are confused, this is what I want you to do: Write me an email saying that you will leave me a Five Star rating and that I can send you the money minus the fees and I will send the money (second count of extortion), and I will be expecting it tomorrow morning -and he hung up the phone.

I wrote the message and submitted it to the case notes. Here's what I wrote:

"Dear Mr. Chang, Per our conversation you agreed to send the refund of $100 minus the fees at a rate of 11% from the $81.88 (9.0068) for the English Revised Tropical Island, totaling $91.00 refunded. Also, at your request, after I receive the funds in my account I will promise to leave a Five Star feedback rating so as not to adversely affect your reputation on eBay, and promptly close this case. You said you will refund the money to my PayPal account "XXXXX@ymail.com" the following morning once you receive confirmation of my response. Thank you. Additionally, please excuse me for having to open this case but as a buyer/customer sometimes these things happen and it would seem necessary to protect oneself during transactions, as I'm sure it is understood. Truly, Keith (sierra-eg) "

===========

Daniel J.Chang "Case Response": Sent: Oct-21-11 02:41 PM
"keith, listing fees? Look I want you to leave the feedback and 5 star rating first. you never even bought this item, so i have no reassurance you want leave me a negative. I'll refund you once you have done this."

===========

I was about to submit the feedback but I called customer support and they said if he decides to not refund you there is no way to remove the feedback and they told me to escalate the case to eBay Customer Support because he is clearly manipulating me. I told the eBay rep. the entire story and she told me do not worry because of the fact that a rep. originally opened the case for me eBay would refund my money in full and go after him for the refund regardless of me using a Money Order to pay.

I escalated the case and three hours later I receive this response.

eBay Customer Support has made a final decision and the case is closed. Oct 21, 2011 at 7:10 PM
eBay Customer Support comments:
You didn't pay for the item before opening the case. When you place a winning bid or buy an item, you're required to pay for it.
Final decision:
This case has been decided in the seller's favor.

===========

I called customer support and explained and they told me to appeal. I wrote this:

Reason:
I believe an error was made in the final decision on this case
Your message to eBay Customer Support:
"To whom it may concern, There's been an obvious and egregious error reviewing this case. In the messages from the seller he clearly states "he will refund my money after I agree to his terms" -stated numerous times in eBay messages and in Case Response[s]. First, he wanted me to cancel the item that I was to initially receive but before he would refund the payment (I obviously declined since this is not proper procedure). Then he wanted me to leave a Five Star rating before he would refund. Both examples are purely an attempt to manipulate me and the system. I'll quote the messages from my eBay Inbox: Message received 11/30/11 from "gradedmagiccards" in Folder 1, Messages: "Keith, Sorry, I can't find those cards in the condition you want. Yes, I got the offer for the Tropical, so I can do 78.00 total includes shipping and give you $22 cash back? let me know if that works." Why would he want to give me $22 back unless he obviously has received payment. Also, I can provide receipts and a complete record of all correspondence through eBay messaging system that provide details where the seller acknowledges receiving payment. Another instance of the seller attempting to manipulate is after he agreed to a price for the ENGLISH REVISED TROPICAL ISLAND he let the "Best Offer" expire, and I responded by clicking "Buy it Now". His reply to that was, "Dear sierra-eg, I noticed you bought another item, did you? Did you want 2 of them? - gradedmagiccards" Of course I just wanted record of the single purchase, of which case he did not. I have sent him $100, and now every response from him is to either relieve himself of responsibility or to generate something positive in his favor without fulfilling his obligations. It is now in my opinion where in hindsight he's had no intent what-so-ever to complete this transaction once he received my money. Concerned eBay member, sierra-eg"

===========

If eBay doesn't rule in my favor this time I was told by customer support to call and ask to speak with someone in the appeals department. It was strange that they replied so quick without asking for any additional info. It is also hard to understand that who ever supposedly reviewed the case over looked EVERYTHING! I'm thinking he probably knows someone who works there. I've only opened one other case (about to open my third for a $3 card the seller hasn't sent and wont respond) in over 220 transactions on eBay and they messaged me three times over an $18 card were the seller had gone on a ripping spree. If I get nowhere I'm filing mail fraud, and posting this on every MTG related forum.

I was amazed at how verbally belligerent he was over the phone and that he tried to coerce me into leaving positive feedback and canceling the item. He sounded like a child who couldn't get their own way -I have two.

Feel free to share this info with anyone that's interested.

Keith (farsk8dutch)

PS: Update,

eBay Customer Support has declined your appeal and upheld the original decision on the case. Oct 23, 2011 at 8:57 PM
eBay Customer Support comments:
We're sorry you had a problem with your purchase. However, after further review, we confirmed that our original decision was correct.

===========

I'm curious as to whether the reviewer actually read ANY of the case responses. It seems as though some people just do not want to be bothered. Really, this is like a bad April Fools joke.

Also, the item for $3 I'm opening my third case for was deleted from my list "completely!". Around the time someone in the appeals department was supposed to be reviewing my case I would have been watching TV. My comp. was on the whole time and I was only a few feet away and when I checked again for the ruling I noticed it was missing/deleted before I read the appeals ruling. It's only been twenty four days since I won it and I would have no record of it at all if not for my emails. Haha, real funny.

I have no intentions of letting this go without making it well known. Depending upon what happens once I've spoken with the appeals department I'll be filing mail fraud.

Also, Jazaray/Nderdog/Gunslinga: because of the content involved, as far as this site goes, am I allowed to post links to this thread exposing this incident?

As for posting links to this thread, go ahead.. Put a link in your sig too. You may NOT do this on your lists, however.

I'm just amazed at Ebay's response..

Thanks,
Jazaray

__________________
A Plastered Dragon Original Limerick:
There was a nice lassie named Jaz
Many wished to have what she has,
A delicate face,
A soft warm embrace,
And a whole lot of bedroom pizzazz.

WeedIan: Jazaray is like MOTL's Mom.

The only way to protect yourself is to use PayPal 100% of the time, and ALWAYS use a credit card (never bank or existing funds), where you can do a chargeback if necessary.

The problem in your situation is that you are trying to get a refund for a different item(s) by issuing a claim on a different item. Ebay has trained monkeys working for them, and they won't read the details of the case. They'll just look at it, see that it was never paid for in the first place, and side with the other guy.

Also, check out the post I just made (right below yours right now) about this same guy. He's been a known scammer for well over 5 years now.

__________________
MOTL's Most Likely to Play in the Pro Tour - 2007, 2008, and 2009
(My Nationals)

quote:

---

Originally posted by PortlisX:

Also, check out the post I just made (right below yours right now) about this same guy. He's been a known scammer for well over 5 years now.

---

Daniel Chang and Mike Chen are different people, as far as I know.

After that I finally left negative feedback, 80 spaces isn't nearly enough to convey a realistic thought process. I confirmed it with an eBay "specialist" before leaving it so it doesn't get removed, and they added some notes to their end confirming that it's legitimate feedback so it wont get pulled. I wish I could've left a link to this thread but the rules specifically prohibit that. I also didn't know that you can't reference any case decisions about the item your leaving feedback for.

I wonder if it will make a difference when filing mail fraud about the fact that I had used a Postal Money Order (with it being federal and already through the PO) will I still have to pay for a PMO Inquiry before I file, and also if him trying to get more money from me in the beginning would add to this type of case. I know there's quite a few members here that have had to file mail fraud but I've never heard anything about any responses of the end results or time frame involved with the process.

As long as you still have the MO receipt and can prove he cashed it, the federal gov't should be find with it. THEY'VE got no ties to Paypal and (some of them) actually have brains in their heads.

I wish you the best of luck!

Thanks,
Jazaray

__________________
A Plastered Dragon Original Limerick:
There was a nice lassie named Jaz
Many wished to have what she has,
A delicate face,
A soft warm embrace,
And a whole lot of bedroom pizzazz.

WeedIan: Jazaray is like MOTL's Mom.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jazaray:
They're not going to rule in your favor because you didn't use Paypal? That ridiculous! "Non-preferred" isn't "Not allowed". It's not like you used some sort of illegal method of payment. They asked for you to prove you paid and you did.

As long as you still have the MO receipt and can prove he cashed it, the federal gov't should be find with it. THEY'VE got no ties to Paypal and (some of them) actually have brains in their heads.

I wish you the best of luck!

Thanks,
Jazaray

---

I know you have good intentions and you are thinking with your heart here, but to be quite frank, you simply do not know what you are talking about with respect to this case. And for the good of those who are reading this thread and wanting to protect themselves from future problems on eBay, they should know why this guy is having problems, not just that "ebay is being ridiculous".

With anything in life and especially internet purchases, understanding how to protect yourself is important. In this particular instance, the OP didn't follow the rules of "eBay buyer protection" and thus they aren't going to side in his favor. It's really pretty simple: Don't play by eBay's rules and you have no ground to stand on when using their site. It might seem heartless on their part, and perhaps it is, but there's a really simple reason why they have their rules as they do: To protect their bottom line, which is really all that they care about (and you could argue that's all they SHOULD care about, as a business with stock shares and stockholders - but of course that's a different discussion).

The simple fact of the matter is that eBay CAN NOT forcibly recover a money order from a scammer, so instead of issuing refunds when items are paid for via money orders, they will always side with seller. The bottom line is that they'd rather you lose your money than eBay loses theirs.

I highly suggest reading up on "ebay buyer protection" if anyone is going to buy on eBay. The following link provides all of the details.

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/buyer-protection.html#conditions

In that link, they clearly show which payment methods WILL be covered. Anything that is not listed, will not be covered and you are using at your own expense. Money orders are obviously not covered. As I've said earlier, if you truly want to be covered while making purchases on ebay, ALWAYS use PayPal and ALWAYS use a credit card while making that purchase. Not a debit card either, but a credit card.

quote:

---

Originally posted by PortlisX:
I know you have good intentions and you are thinking with your heart here, but to be quite frank, you simply do not know what you are talking about with respect to this case. And for the good of those who are reading this thread and wanting to protect themselves from future problems on eBay, they should know why this guy is having problems, not just that "ebay is being ridiculous".

With anything in life and especially internet purchases, understanding how to protect yourself is important. In this particular instance, the OP didn't follow the rules of "eBay buyer protection" and thus they aren't going to side in his favor. It's really pretty simple: Don't play by eBay's rules and you have no ground to stand on when using their site. It might seem heartless on their part, and perhaps it is, but there's a really simple reason why they have their rules as they do: To protect their bottom line, which is really all that they care about (and you could argue that's all they SHOULD care about, as a business with stock shares and stockholders - but of course that's a different discussion).

The simple fact of the matter is that eBay CAN NOT forcibly recover a money order from a scammer, so instead of issuing refunds when items are paid for via money orders, they will always side with seller. The bottom line is that they'd rather you lose your money than eBay loses theirs.

I highly suggest reading up on "ebay buyer protection" if anyone is going to buy on eBay. The following link provides all of the details.

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/buyer-protection.html#conditions

In that link, they clearly show which payment methods WILL be covered. Anything that is not listed, will not be covered and you are using at your own expense. Money orders are obviously not covered. As I've said earlier, if you truly want to be covered while making purchases on ebay, ALWAYS use PayPal and ALWAYS use a credit card while making that purchase. Not a debit card either, but a credit card.

And I'm sorry to say, but if you are expecting help from the federal government about a $100 internet scam, you're going to be sorely disappointed. I'm not saying don't do what you can, but don't hold your breath on ever getting a refund.

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Can you tell me why the customer service person he talked to, or the several that he talked to, told him that they'd side with him then? They're saying that they're siding with the seller because Farsk can't prove he paid, but he can and he did. If you're going to have rules, you need to clearly define them and stick to them. Not have person 1 and 2 saying totally different things from "the rules". Not saying that they're siding with the seller "because you can't prove you paid", you say you're siding with the seller "because you didn't use an ebay stated covered payment method". And, regardless of if he didn't use a "covered" payment method, the seller should be disciplined for non-receipt of merchandise. IE: Account suspended until he refunds the payment. Ebay loses nothing if they would do that.

I may not know very much about ebay covered payment methods, but I sure know a lot about site rules and how to stick by them, as well as how to attempt to get people to pay up what they owe.

So, it pretty much IS that "ebay is being ridiculous". Or how about ignorant?

Thanks,
Jazaray

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jazaray:
Can you tell me why the customer service person he talked to, or the several that he talked to, told him that they'd side with him then? They're saying that they're siding with the seller because Farsk can't prove he paid, but he can and he did. If you're going to have rules, you need to clearly define them and stick to them. Not have person 1 and 2 saying totally different things from "the rules". Not saying that they're siding with the seller "because you can't prove you paid", you say you're siding with the seller "because you didn't use an ebay stated covered payment method". And, regardless of if he didn't use a "covered" payment method, the seller should be disciplined for non-receipt of merchandise. IE: Account suspended until he refunds the payment. Ebay loses nothing if they would do that.

I may not know very much about ebay covered payment methods, but I sure know a lot about site rules and how to stick by them, as well as how to attempt to get people to pay up what they owe.

So, it pretty much IS that "ebay is being ridiculous". Or how about ignorant?

Thanks,
Jazaray

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Because like many large companies, most customer service reps are complete idiots. Sure, he may have gotten bad information from those reps over the phone, but if he wants to be safe with his online purchases it's still his responsibility to make sure he knows what he's doing and take appropriate measures to protect himself. Relying on the information an $8/hour phone rep gives out is asking for trouble.

It's like the old phrase "ignorance of the law is no excuse". It's best to learn the rules first than deal with the consequences later.

quote:

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Originally posted by PortlisX:
As I said earlier, they know they aren't getting their money back from the seller if they refund the buyer and thus they side with the seller. And you can't side with the seller AND still discipline them, so this is the result. It's all about leverage. Disciplining this scammer doesn't help the OP get his money back either, which is ultimately the entire point of the conversation.

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The seller has an active PayPal account so removing the money from there would be easy enough. From a business perspective I agree that taking a loss because a buyer isn't using proper payment is a losing situation but at the same time not holding the seller accountable for their actions is wrong. They have the ability to do so but choose not to. I was told "even though you have proof of payment if we were to make an exception because of that we'd have to do it for everyone". And, with that, a revision of the buyer protection policy should include those who can provide proof of payment to a seller with an active PayPal account to withdraw from to essentially reimburse the refund would make for a sensible improvement. Wishful thinking I know.

As far as not disciplining the seller because they sided with him "and you can't side with the seller AND still discipline them" because the buyer didn't use a payment method that's covered under their protection policy is an asinine excuse when all of the proof is there. It definitely doesn't get any money back but it would be a possible deterrent for him having second thoughts about doing it again in the future given the opportunity, or if only to make a record of this seller's propensity towards this type of behavior. He did break other rules and supposedly he's under investigation but where that leads your guess is as good as mine. I did report him for the feedback extortion (as advised by the specialist) but I received an an automated message saying I have to call them because it will not be read.

quote:

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Originally posted by Hooskdaddy:
But stop blaming Ebay, not their fault. Their rules are clearly posted as to what is and isnt acceptable for payment when trying to recover money for item. Anytime you get a message from Ebay theres a message about it at the bottom.
The people to blame is the seller who didnt refund the buyer and the buyer who didnt use a better method of payment.

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So if you were buying cards that showed up in Ebay auctions, and if were somehow circumventing the auctions format, Ebay will never side with you.

Coming up with a private deal with the seller that didn't end up with you as the high bidder when the auction closed will not put you in a defensible position. So unless you ended the auction as the highest bidder: You would need the seller to pull the original auctions and re-offer the cards in a buy-it-now at the negotiated price. Or you would need to have the auction's "make an offer" option active, and have the seller formally accept your offer.

If you follow Ebay rules and bid using their format, you gain some protection. If you pay in a manner that Ebay can track (as stated above), you gain a lot of protection. But if the seller is bypassing the Ebay norms, and if you follow him outside of Ebay, that is your risk, and no longer Ebay's problem. So your biggest mistake was agreeing to buy cards without having a legal claim to winning those auctions in the first place.

__________________
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quote:

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Originally posted by Vegas10:
Everyone needs to quit blaming the buyer when you win a bid on ebay that is a contract to buy something which means when you pay the seller is to give you what you paid for it is a legal binding contract, if the buyer has proof of payment he can take this person to small claims court for the pruchase amount but no more than $5000 in small claims court however if you have to travel halfway accross the country to do so may not be worth it. Ebay should help him here since if he has proof buyer recieved payment not doing so is poor business and he maybe able to sue ebay in small claims as well but not sure if he can win of if he can sue them for sure, the seller he definitly can sue since he violated a contact.

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The problem here is that from what I can tell, the buyer didn't actually buy anything through eBay until much later in the process.

He saw a few items listed that he was interested in and contacted the seller to see if he would accept a money order. The seller then asked the buyer to make an offer on the cards and he did. They then worked out a payment and it was sent without once having bid on the items. The buyer assumed the seller would end the auctions because the items were now being sold to him but the seller did not (for whatever reason) and the auctions ended with other bidders having won the items. So now, he's promised each of those cards twice over and not giving them to farsk8dutch is less trouble for him then not giving them to the bidders of the auction so he gave fars8dutch the run around.

Then when he got fed up and settled for the Tropical Island the seller again tried to circumvent eBay's selling rules by setting things up outside of eBay (note one Trop listing ending and being removed).

I tend to avoid gradedmagiccards because his listings are just terrible. Awful layout, and he just seems to self congratulatory for the most inane things.

All of that sucks pretty hard for you but if it was me, I would have just taken a full refund immediately. He casually took your original offer of $90 up to $100 then misread your list of cards and bumped it up again to $125 then couldn't figure out how to end an auction even after nearly 2000 feedback which implies some proficiency with eBay and then continued to give you a run around.

Hope it works out for you, but like a few others have mentioned, this is just one more reason to avoid him in the future.

quote:

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Originally posted by Vegas10:
Basic Business law whether through ebay or not an agreement to buy or sell something whether in writing or verbal is a contract once agreed upon and is enforceable in a court of law. A verbal contract does have a financial limit and unless recorded proving is much harder then in writing, but email is evidence in a court of law. If done outside of a bid on ebay does relieve ebay of responsibility but if the seller agrees to sell you something and you pay for it he is obligated to get the item to you or he is violating a contract and can be sued.

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You're missing the point. People were basically discussing whether eBay was in the wrong for not helping the buyer in this case. If we're blaming the buyer for anything, it's going outside of eBay stated policies and then complaining that eBay isn't protecting his purchase. eBay does its best to ensure and inform every buyer of their policies and when buyer protection will and will not kick in, and therefore going outside of this is the buyer's own fault; consequently, eBay, according to their policies, will not protect this purchase.

quote:

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Originally posted by Vegas10:
Everyone needs to quit blaming the buyer when you win a bid on ebay that is a contract to buy something which means when you pay the seller is to give you what you paid for it is a legal binding contract, if the buyer has proof of payment he can take this person to small claims court for the pruchase amount but no more than $5000 in small claims court however if you have to travel halfway accross the country to do so may not be worth it. Ebay should help him here since if he has proof buyer recieved payment not doing so is poor business and he maybe able to sue ebay in small claims as well but not sure if he can win of if he can sue them for sure, the seller he definitly can sue since he violated a contact.

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People aren't BLAMING the buyer, they are stating reasons why the buyer is up **** creek without a paddle as far as getting a refund is concerned.

Again, people like you need to stop spreading false information. Ebay has no obligation to help this buyer because he paid using a means of payment not protected by ebay, and he definitely has no legs to stand on as far as suing ebay, which is laughable to bring up in the first place.

The point that I made, is that instead of crying foul about stuff later, people need to learn the rules to protect themselves first. I do feel bad for the OP, and it always completely sucks to get scammed no matter what the situation is. But hopefully he learned a valuable lesson from the experience that will help him in the future. And hopefully if other people are reading this thread, they will learn what NOT to do for their own purchases to avoid the situation that the OP is in now.