T O P I C R E V I E W |
Markers | There seems to be a misconception about cards like these being legal... http://www.ebay.com/itm/MTG-Liliana-of-the-Veil-SIGNED-BY-STEVE-ARGYLE-ALTERED-ART-FOIL-/150789364388?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item231bbf1aa4 Who is to say that the original really was a Liliana? I hope this is not the beginning of a new alter era where one cannot buy an alter online without triple-checking that it's not counterfeit. Or am I wrong and these things are actually legal to play at tournaments? __________________ Collecting signed cards. PM me...Total signed cards: >29'000 my stuff my nearly complete signed sets
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flophaus | I think they look pretty cool but I think they suck! You're totally right... they're just layering over everything, so who knows what's really under there? You'll see scammers for sure. Alters are sort-of a dead fad anyway, right? |
Markers | quote: Originally posted by flophaus:
Alters are sort-of a dead fad anyway, right?
I can't say I do. For me there is nothing more pimp than a artist altered and signed Magic card. But that's just me... __________________ Collecting signed cards. PM me...Total signed cards: >29'000 my stuff my nearly complete signed sets
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flophaus | That's cool and I totally respect your opinion! =) |
Devonin | quote: Originally posted by Markers: There seems to be a misconception about cards like these being legal...http://www.ebay.com/itm/MTG-Lil iana-of-the-Veil-SIGNED-BY-STEVE-ARGYLE-ALTERED-ART-FOIL-/150789364388?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item231bbf1aa4 Who is to say that the original really was a Liliana? I hope this is not the beginning of a new alter era where one cannot buy an alter online without triple-checking that it's not counterfeit. Or am I wrong and these things are actually legal to play at tournaments?
As I understand it, if the card is altered in such a way that you can't distinguish it from other cards while it's in the sleeve (IE, layers were stripped off to be added back so the card is no thicker than others etc) and the relevent card information (Name, Casting Cost, P/T, Rules Text) in't obscured, it's tournament legal pending the discretion of the judge on the floor. As to whether that's a real Liliana or whether someone is therefore using a proxy whether they realise it or not, I'd assume (But may be wrong if a Level 1+ Judge wants to tell me otherwise) that it's fine unless an opponent wants to lodge a complaint to a judge that you're playing with illegal proxied cards, in which case, the onus is on you to prove that the card is genuine. I'd say if you were planning to use altered art cards in a tournament, I'd have non-altered versions with you in your binder etc. so that if there is a challenge that the cards are not -real- you have the option of showing a judge that you own enough copies of the card to substitute out all your alters, and then it only becomes a question of whether the alter is technically marked because of how the alteration effected the card. |
SearsHicks | How to subscribe for latest digital alerts? __________________
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[Edited 1 times, lastly by SearsHicks on April 02, 2012] |
MAB_Rapper | Here is the difference: These were sold by Steve Argyle himself originally as he did the alters and he sold them at GPs. So they are certainly not counterfeit. How do I know? Because I bought one of his pieces of Everflowing Chalice, changed into a Martini with Chandra using it as a hot tub. Now are they legal to use? My guess is no, since there is an entire layer of lacker on the card that I can still smell every time I take it out of a sleeve. __________________ MOTL's Most Likely to Play in the Pro Tour - 2007, 2008, and 2009 (My 2008 Nationals) The Official Tower Magic Facebook Page
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MagicPatty | I posted about this a month ago. The idea is that this guy is not printing these cards over a mountain, but they are going over the actual card. This means that an altered Underground Sea is on a real Underground Sea. Also, the art is actual art done by the artist, and used with the artist's permission. My question is what machine is he using, and how do the rest of us get to make these things so we can start getting triple the value out of our cards __________________ Starting the bulk rare collection all over! Send them my way!
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Kyzneg | From what I've heard from friends who judge, odds are good that these cards would not be allowed in sanctioned play. Keep in mind as well that under the new MTR (in effect April 2), the card ART has cannot be unrecognizable, not just the card as a whole, which from a rules standpoint means that pretty much any alter that replaces all or most of the original art, especially if it's replacing the primary subject of the original art (the creature itself for creature cards, etc.) would not be allowed. The dual lands that were brought up previously by MagicPatty would not be legal for sanctioned play under this rule, since the original art is replaced. Edit: Keep in mind that this is only an issue for sanctioned events, alters like this are still just fine for EDH and other casual play (as long as the people you're playing with are OK with it of course)
[Edited 1 times, lastly by Kyzneg on March 31, 2012] |
Markers | quote: Originally posted by MagicPatty: I posted about this a month ago. The idea is that this guy is not printing these cards over a mountain, but they are going over the actual card. This means that an altered Underground Sea is on a real Underground Sea.Also, the art is actual art done by the artist, and used with the artist's permission. My question is what machine is he using, and how do the rest of us get to make these things so we can start getting triple the value out of our cards
a) How does one know if the original card was a dual/mox/jace and not a mountain/Island? You can't.... b) If people would find out how to make these...We'd have a serious problem...Who is to stop anyone from making "foil mountains" to "foil Tarmogoyfs" (original pics)? __________________ Collecting signed cards. PM me...Total signed cards: >29'000 my stuff my nearly complete signed sets
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CubFan81 | quote: Originally posted by Markers: a) How does one know if the original card was a dual/mox/jace and not a mountain/Island?
From what I understand of the process, they take an actual Liliana of the Veil and "erase" the parts that they don't want to keep. Everything outside of the name box, cost, abilities, etc. Then they use a digital printer to print the new image (probably commissioned by Steve Argyle) over the clean spots on the card. That could also explain a bit of the price increase. They aren't just slapping some random art over it and jacking it up, they commissioned art specifically for certain cards and that's just built into the final price. I would think (without seeing one in person) that the printing is different enough that the new art would be noticeably different than the originally printed areas. Looking at it close enough you could probably see the difference. All that said, I'm pretty sure they new tournament rules wouldn't allow these at anything bigger than a local FNM. Not to mention that if they become a big enough problem you can be sure WoTC will find a way to shut them down. This isn't some weekend project style proxies. They seem sufficiently big enough that lawyers would like to get involved. |
edsillars | I once purchased a Jace TMS that had been altered. It looked really good in the picture, but when it arrived it looked too good. It was one of these digital style alters, and my main problem with it was that there was no layering distinction like with standard altars. It could have been on a genuine card, but the effect could have been created on any other mtg card. The seller accepted returns for any reason (part of why I felt comfortable buying it) So I returned it. The seller didn't ask why; I didn't feel the need to offer an explanation. In short, I would never again buy one of these, regardless of how reliable the source is. |
Helspont | For the Liliana's, the name, all the abilities and the loyalty are not part of the "overlay". Anyone with any amount of depth perception would be able to tell that it is a real Liliana under it. At GP SLC, the judges were all over the place on what alters were allowed and what wasn't. Saw angel and demon Liliana alters being allowed and school girl and nurses not allowed. One judge said yes to the full foil alter and another said no to it. |
TimeBeing | quote: Originally posted by Helspont:
At GP SLC, the judges were all over the place on what alters were allowed and what wasn't. Saw angel and demon Liliana alters being allowed and school girl and nurses not allowed. One judge said yes to the full foil alter and another said no to it.
Head judge has final say. School girl was likely due to sexual images. Others could have been due to thickness. Any serious alter can be disallowed by a head judge for any reason. So are those legal? Maybe Would i allow them if i was head judge? I'm leaning toward no, but I'd have to see one. |
Zakman86 | quote: Originally posted by TimeBeing: Head judge has final say. School girl was likely due to sexual images. Others could have been due to thickness. Any serious alter can be disallowed by a head judge for any reason.So are those legal? Maybe Would i allow them if i was head judge? I'm leaning toward no, but I'd have to see one.
The SLC judges who said yes must not have been at the Judge Conference the day before when I went over them with my finger during the seminar and physically was able to show the difference in thickness because of the cutouts. (In reference to the AlteredPrints cards) |
Devonin | When in doubt, don't get a fancy alter made on your only copy of something you want to use in a tournament. If a judge wants to rule on an individual case that a particular card is not legal, by at least -having- another copy of the card on hand to show them, you might be allowed to just sub it out instead of say, getting busted as cheating for using a card in your deck that isn't real. |
Sovarius | So these are actually only illegal if printed onto a card it actually isn't? |
Devonin | Well no. They are -absolutely- illegal if printed onto a card they aren't. You're playing with a card you don't own. All I'm saying is, if someone casts doubt onto whether or not your altered Jace TMS is an actual one, HAVING an actual one on hand will make you a lot less likely to have bad things happen to you. |
Sovarius | I think you misread me. You just about repeated what i said in answer to my question. Rephrase - Is it legal to digitally alter a card if it's still the same card? Jace TMS could be altered into a JTMS who's holding a crystal ball, for example. What if you make your own brand new cards, but you aren't distrubuting or making a profit on them? |
Devonin | Legal in the "Legal for play in a tournament" sense seems like it's pretty much entirely up to the judge at the table. As long as the relevant rules text is not obscured or modified, and the card is, by weight/thickness/etc not distinguishable from other cards, whether a given entirely cosmetic alteration is kosher depends on whether your opponent calls a judge over for it, and what the judge decides. In tersm of legal in the "The Law" sense: Modifying the artwork and then selling the card would be a violation of the copyright of WOTC and/or the Artist who did the artwork. Modifying it for your own personal use and not profit, in the US, assuming WOTC holds the copyright and not the Artist (In which case only if the artist is also from the US) it probably would fall under fair use. |